# Let's talk about private scrip & Facebook's upcoming attempt at it **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690 "2019-06-18T16:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/1 "2019-06-18T16:23:00Z")
[AP story here](https://apnews.com/bf65691428d24af7b9fc1f0707d433b4). > [@](#): > > The social network unveiled an ambitious plan Tuesday to create a new digital currency similar to Bitcoin for global use, one that could drive more e-commerce on its services and boost ads on its platforms. > > But the effort, which Facebook is launching with partners including PayPal, Uber, Spotify, Visa and Mastercard, could also complicate matters for the beleaguered social network. Facebook is currently under federal investigation over its privacy practices, and along with other technology giants also faces a new antitrust probe in Congress . > > Creating its own globe-spanning currency — one that could conceivably threaten banks, national currencies and the privacy of users — isn’t likely to dampen regulators’ interest in Facebook. I can’t see any government being happy about this, especially the US since that’s where Facebook is headquartered. I also don’t see a way for the US to stop it, as long as Facebook doesn’t try and pay their employees in Facebits or Facecoins or whatever they end up calling them. Yet there’s a real danger that this could become, simply through sheer volume, a viable currency. And no government or bank is likely to want a private company setting value arbitrarily, are they? So what all are the pros & cons of private scrip in general, and is Facebook overstepping/mis-stepping/other negative or are they on the track to something great? And if Facebook can do this, what would be stopping other companies from introducing their own private scrips and attempting to gain dominance or a leverage position in the newly-minted currency business? Would we quickly have AppleCoin and MicrosoftBits and KraftKoins cluttering up our financial worlds? ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/2 "2019-06-18T16:26:42Z")
I would not feel too comfortable with facebook having my information. I don’t trust them to not act in a sneaky dishonest way with my data. That’s about all the thought I’ve given this issue so far. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/3 "2019-06-18T16:34:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [AP story here](https://apnews.com/bf65691428d24af7b9fc1f0707d433b4).I can’t see any government being happy about this, especially the US since that’s where Facebook is headquartered. I also don’t see a way for the US to stop it, as long as Facebook doesn’t try and pay their employees in Facebits or Facecoins or whatever they end up calling them. > > Yet there’s a real danger that this could become, simply through sheer volume, a viable currency. And no government or bank is likely to want a private company setting value arbitrarily, are they? > > So what all are the pros & cons of private scrip in general, and is Facebook overstepping/mis-stepping/other negative or are they on the track to something great? > > And if Facebook can do this, what would be stopping other companies from introducing their own private scrips and attempting to gain dominance or a leverage position in the newly-minted currency business? Would we quickly have AppleCoin and MicrosoftBits and KraftKoins cluttering up our financial worlds? I’m not sure there is any issue with this. And outside of price fixing or silly price floors prices aren’t set by anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/4 "2019-06-18T17:03:22Z")
As a hypothetical, Facebook currency will be the same as every other type of scrip - it will be viable as long as everyone agrees it’s viable. During that time it will also be gamed by speculators, so you can never be 100% sure that a dollar, Euro, yen, etc. transferred to FB currency will give you the equivalent value. Maybe more, maybe less; that’s what the speculators will hope for. Frankly, I don’t see any benefit over using a major credit card, or PayPal or similar apps where real currency is moved around. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/5 "2019-06-18T21:16:06Z")
Facebook’s scrip will be called [Libra](https://apnews.com/366328036c7246f2871f4ab76bf1379a). > [@](#): > > Libra will use the same security and record-keeping principles as Bitcoin, the most popular digital currency system today. But unlike Bitcoin, Libra is backed by several traditional financial companies, including PayPal, Visa and Mastercard, and will base its value on multiple real-world currencies such as the U.S. dollar and the euro. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/6 "2019-06-18T22:19:13Z")
There are lots of private currencies out there: Airline miles, credit card points, video game currencies are a few. Generally, they serve a few goals from the companies that issue them. 1. They non-linearly reward brand-loyalty. If you already have a bunch of miles from Airline X or points from Card Y, you’re more likely to use those again even if the individual purchase doesn’t make sense because a tiny amount of miles/points on some other service isn’t actually worth anything. 2. They separate the pain of spending money from the purchase process. It’s psychologically much easier to use dollars to buy gems, then use gems to buy video game items than if you had to pull out your credit card each time. Facebook’s play seems like something different, but it’s a bit early to say what. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/7 "2019-06-18T22:32:57Z")
How is Facebook going to get people to use this Libra? If someone is selling some good or service and will only accept Libra in exchange, they will almost certainly lose to a competitor that accepts dollars. If they accept both dollars and Libra, why would I want to pay using Libra that I don’t have and would likely have to purchase at a premium using dollars, when I can just use dollars instead? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/8 "2019-06-18T22:39:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I can’t see any government being happy about this, especially the US since that’s where Facebook is headquartered. I also don’t see a way for the US to stop it, as long as Facebook doesn’t try and pay their employees in Facebits or Facecoins or whatever they end up calling them. Anti-trust laws are a thing. People (well, one high-profile person, at least) are already talking about [breaking up big tech companies](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47509945) because of the utterly outsized influence they hold, and adding “has all your money” to facebook’s power doesn’t exactly reduce that influence. The really concerning thing here (other than that our government seems chronically incapable of actually using the anti-trust laws on the books and it’s entirely likely that 5/4ths of our supreme court will find some bullshit excuse to throw them out entirely, and oh wow now that I’ve said it that is concerning) to me is this: > [@](#): > > Libra will use the same security and record-keeping principles as Bitcoin, the most popular digital currency system today. [Cryptocurrency fucking sucks for the environment](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2019/06/bitcoin-as-bad-for-climate-change-as-a-large-city-study.html). Now, maybe the Libra is designed differently, so that it doesn’t get exponentially harder to work with as time goes on… But this is one more potential hurdle for an idea that, let’s be honest, really isn’t good to begin with. Can anyone explain why this is good for anyone other than Facebook? Because I can’t for the life of me think of a reason. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/9 "2019-06-19T01:37:53Z")
See, I figured that with Facebook’s reach (nearing 1 in 3 humans on the planet just now) [this would be a serious concern for governments](https://apnews.com/d9f3a3ef897e4db2a637b6c5e59a3d54). > [@](#): > > The head of the House Financial Services Committee wants Facebook to suspend plans for a new currency until Congress and regulators are able to study it more closely. > > In asking Facebook to put the Libra currency plans on hold, Rep. Maxine Waters, a California Democrat, says Facebook “is continuing its unchecked expansion and extending its reach into the lives of its users.” > [@](#): > > Earlier, the senior Democrat on the Senate Banking Committee said Facebook’s new digital currency will give the tech giant unfair competitive advantages in collecting data on financial transactions as well as control over fees. Sen. Sherrod Brown of Ohio says “Facebook is already too big and too powerful.” > [@](#): > > Just hours after the social media giant unveiled early plans for the Libra cryptocurrency, French Finance Minister Bruno Le Maire insisted that only governments can issue sovereign currencies. He said Facebook must ensure that Libra won’t hurt consumers or be used for illegal activities. > > “We will demand guarantees that such transactions cannot be diverted, for example for financing terrorism,” he said on Europe-1 radio. > [@](#): > > Wall says it seems to Libra is designed not just for Facebook properties — where data on who is buying what from whom can be scooped up — but also to leak into the unregulated world at large. > > The Swedish expert said Tuesday that Facebook appears bent on making Libra the global currency of choice and is very clever in seeking to place the regulatory burden on other businesses. He said, “It’s a pretty sneak move.” I don’t think a world-spanning corporation also being the world-spanning currency provider is a very smart idea, except maybe for the people at the top of that world-spanning corporation. ETA: In fact, it really seems like a huge power grab by Facebook. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/10 "2019-06-19T02:01:55Z")
I think cryptocurrency is really nothing more than a private token or ticket system. For those who “invest” in crypto, they’re basically just riding a wave, which can collapse at any moment (i.e. gambling). I don’t think central governments lose a millisecond of sleep worrying about “viable” crypto for the simple fact that with regulated currencies there is transparency. In any economic exchange, it’s transparency that allows people to have faith and to operate in good faith. The way I look at it, crypto for facebook is going to be a good thing for their product. The Chinese company “We-Chat” already basically has their own payment processing, and the world hasn’t collapsed. Any “crypto” currency is going to have to have the ability to convert into something else. There’s no global currency. If there’s a problem with this, it’s that facebook users who start using Lira will simply be giving more and more intimate details about themselves to a company that gives zero fucks about your privacy and your critical data. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/11 "2019-06-19T02:05:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > See, I figured that with Facebook’s reach (nearing 1 in 3 humans on the planet just now) [this would be a serious concern for governments](https://apnews.com/d9f3a3ef897e4db2a637b6c5e59a3d54).I don’t think a world-spanning corporation also being the world-spanning currency provider is a very smart idea, except maybe for the people at the top of that world-spanning corporation. > > ETA: In fact, it really seems like a huge power grab by Facebook. I seriously doubt that Facebook is really reaching 1 in 3 humans - wouldn’t surprise me if half their goddamn profiles are AI accounts. The real danger for Facebook investors and for the markets (i.e. S&P) is when people awaken to the realization that Facebook projects more power and reach than it actually has. Facebook’s activity is also dominated by superusers - has been for the better part of a decade. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/12 "2019-06-19T10:11:08Z")
Many here are saying “Ho hum, there were scrips in the 19th century. Nothing to see here; move along folks.” The secrecy of cyptocurrencies has big advantages and big disadvantages. The big advantage — secrecy — is a big disadvantage to government regulaters. So: Would we prefer the U.S. Government to be “in charge” of our financial transactions, or would we prefer to have Facebook and Google in charge? I think there’s at least a tiny chance that the U.S. Government might recover its integrity. Facebook will be a malevolent agent in perpetuity. [example] I wonder how many Dopers are aware that an American can no longer open a bank account almost anywhere in the world without filing an IRS W-9 form. This may seem normal for expats like me, but my dual-citizenship child trying to open a bank account in his country of birth is faced with a choice: perjure himself (as most in that situation do) when asked “Are you a U.S. citizen?” or spend hours, perhaps unsuccessfully, interacting with bank officials. Some of these “U.S. persons” may prefer in future to be paid in encrypted Facebook money. Overly complex U.S. financial laws may become more complex. Good or bad? You decide. \*\*\*We’re all rushing blindly toward a dystopia; we just don’t know which dystopian model comes closest to our destiny. \*\*\* Are Facebook and its growing power likely to be an agent of good or an agent of evil? That’s the real debate. “Nothing to see here, 19th-century corporations also used scrip” is NOT the answer to this question. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/13 "2019-06-19T11:16:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Would we prefer the U.S. Government to be “in charge” of our financial transactions, or would we prefer to have Facebook and Google in charge? I think there’s at least a tiny chance that the U.S. Government might recover its integrity. Facebook will be a malevolent agent in perpetuity. > > [example] I wonder how many Dopers are aware that an American can no longer open a bank account almost anywhere in the world without filing an IRS W-9 form. I don’t get this idea that the US Government is in charge of my financial transactions. They may be aware of some of them, but they’re not in charge in any meaningful way. Being a citizen of the US means you are subject to the laws of the US. All a W9 does is tell the company you hand it to your name, address, and tax ID number. The bank then sticks it in a filing cabinet and never looks at it again. If you or your dual citizen child don’t want to fill out the simplest of forms, stop being citizen of the country that requires it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/14 "2019-06-19T12:58:40Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > Being a citizen of the US means you are subject to the laws of the US. All a W9 does is tell the company you hand it to your name, address, and tax ID number. The bank then sticks it in a filing cabinet and never looks at it again. If you or your dual citizen child don’t want to fill out the simplest of forms, stop being citizen of the country that requires it. You managed to miss the point in several different ways! My son was happy to provide the W-9 information but still wasted TWO HOURS at a bank branch before finally learning that they would NOT open an account for him at all (unless he perjured himself). Your glib suggestion that we renounce our U.S. citizenship suggests that you know little about that. Do a little Googling and report back with a summary of some of the financial costs of such renunciation. (Hint: the $2350 filing fee _per family member_ is just the beginning.) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/15 "2019-06-19T13:07:03Z")
It took two hours to ask the manager “Do you open accounts for US citizens?”? ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/16 "2019-06-19T13:14:15Z")
You have 2 choices as an American citizen living abroad. Both have consequences. I think “perjury” isn’t the word you are looking for, unless bank teller is a more important job where you live than it is here. I’m guessing you don’t bank in USD where you live, so I fail to see how whatever currency you are banking in is different than banking in Libras, or Bitcoins, or Gold Pieces. Income is income. I’m sorry it takes so long for your to open a bank account, but it only sounds slightly longer than openning a domestic bank account here. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/17 "2019-06-19T14:41:49Z")
Currently crypto is being used for two purposes. One is as an investment vehicle for nuts who think that fiat currencies are evil. The second is for people in oppressive countries to get around currency controls. I don’t see how Facebook could appeal to either market, people who hate fiat currencies probably also hate giant, privacy invading corporations. Having Facebook control it means that oppressive governments have a place to go to control it and prevent its use in getting around currency controls. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/18 "2019-06-19T14:54:51Z")
This isn’t meant as a competitor to government money. If it was, it wouldn’t tie its value to other currencies. This is going to be a nightmare for them or their users as any appreciation is going to be taxed. Either their users will see money being deducted and not understand why or the FB will put it on the users to report the appreciation on their taxes and the IRS will throw a fit. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/19 "2019-06-19T15:04:23Z")
It’s more likely that Facebook would just issue 1099s at the end of the year to show any unrealized appreciation. This isn’t burdensome, Patreon and Paypal do it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/20 "2019-06-19T16:04:57Z")
“Libra”? What, did someone already trademark Facebucks? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690.md?page=2)