# Let's talk about private scrip & Facebook's upcoming attempt at it **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690 "2019-06-18T16:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/21 "2019-06-19T16:22:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Currently crypto is being used for two purposes. One is as an investment vehicle for nuts who think that fiat currencies are evil. The second is for people in oppressive countries to get around currency controls. > I don’t see how Facebook could appeal to either market, people who hate fiat currencies probably also hate giant, privacy invading corporations. Having Facebook control it means that oppressive governments have a place to go to control it and prevent its use in getting around currency controls. 1. Buying drugs, or other illicit substances/services, (pseudo)anonymously. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/22 "2019-06-19T17:19:05Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > 1. Buying drugs, or other illicit substances/services, (pseudo)anonymously. I think that counts as oppressive government. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/23 "2019-06-19T18:52:28Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > It’s more likely that Facebook would just issue 1099s at the end of the year to show any unrealized appreciation. This isn’t burdensome, Patreon and Paypal do it. I assume this is to be marketed to Joe Schmo. Joe Schmo is going to look at a 1099 from facebook for everyday transacting as quite burdensome. He could possibly understand if it was marketed as an investment instrument. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/24 "2019-06-19T18:56:25Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Currently crypto is being used for two purposes. One is as an investment vehicle for nuts who think that fiat currencies are evil. The second is for people in oppressive countries to get around currency controls. > I don’t see how Facebook could appeal to either market, people who hate fiat currencies probably also hate giant, privacy invading corporations. Having Facebook control it means that oppressive governments have a place to go to control it and prevent its use in getting around currency controls. There are many billions of dollars in crypto currencies. What percentage of that is being held by nuts and what percentage is held by those in economic backwaters? ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/25 "2019-06-19T19:28:41Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I assume this is to be marketed to Joe Schmo. Joe Schmo is going to look at a 1099 from facebook for everyday transacting as quite burdensome. He could possibly understand if it was marketed as an investment instrument. Mr Schmo already receives 1099s for the minuscule amount of intrest earned on his mortgage escrow, for his state tax refund, for the intrest generated from his checking account, for that $50 rebate he got from Craftsman when he bought his leaf blower. I think one more won’t kill him. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/26 "2019-06-19T19:55:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There are many billions of dollars in crypto currencies. What percentage of that is being held by nuts and what percentage is held by those in economic backwaters? According to [this](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffkauflin/2019/05/15/fear-drives-chinese-to-buy-bitcoin/#7fe836ed5e31), China accounts for 20% of Bitcoin trading. My guess is that the percentage held by nutty investors is about 50% and the other 30% are in other countries like Venezuela, Turkey, and Iran. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/27 "2019-06-19T21:22:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > My guess is that the percentage held by nutty investors is about 50% and the other 30% are in other countries like Venezuela, Turkey, and Iran. And criminals ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/28 "2019-06-19T21:56:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Anti-trust laws are a thing. > \ > Can anyone explain why this is good for anyone other than Facebook? Because I can’t for the life of me think of a reason. Anti-trust laws are a thing, but it seems [unlikely that Facebook falls afoul of how they are generally interpreted](https://stratechery.com/2019/tech-and-antitrust/). I don’t see that adding a cryptocurrency would meaningfully affect that. They certainly don’t have anything approaching a dominant market position on cryptocurrencies. Presumably future users of this thing will find some value to it, just as they find value in Facebook’s current offerings. If they don’t, then we probably don’t have to worry about it. > [@septimus](#): > > So: Would we prefer the U.S. Government to be “in charge” of our financial transactions, or would we prefer to have Facebook and Google in charge? I think there’s at least a tiny chance that the U.S. Government might recover its integrity. Facebook will be a malevolent agent in perpetuity. I generally agree with you that Facebook is a bad actor, but I also tend to believe that experimentation is good and the rule of law is good and I can’t think of a law that should keep Facebook from trying this. Facebook can be forced to comply with laws passed by the US government just like banks and credit card processors are (who currently do much of the actual financial transacting). My solution is going to be to not use it, just as I don’t use any of Facebook’s other products. > [@](#): > > \*\*\*We’re all rushing blindly toward a dystopia; we just don’t know which dystopian model comes closest to our destiny. \*\*\* Are Facebook and its growing power likely to be an agent of good or an agent of evil? That’s the real debate. “Nothing to see here, 19th-century corporations also used scrip” is NOT the answer to this question. 20th and 21st century companies have scrip too. The important part is that American Airlines can’t force you to buy your bread at their company store. I think there are arguments that Facebook has more power over the average person than a company store did, but I think they’re pretty weak. Very few people have to have a Facebook account for their livelihood. Even among those who do, I am skeptical that Facebook can exert the sort of all-encompassing control that company towns did over their employees. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/29 "2019-06-19T22:02:44Z")
I don’t like the idea of Facebook being in charge of my finances. And the way I plan to ensure that, is to not put them in charge of their finances. Yeah, obviously it would be to Facebook’s benefit if everyone decided to use their private currency. But it equally obviously won’t be in anyone else’s benefit to do so, and so the idea won’t take off. I don’t think governments need to do anything; I think it’ll flop all on its own. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/30 "2019-06-19T23:18:07Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > According to [this](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffkauflin/2019/05/15/fear-drives-chinese-to-buy-bitcoin/#7fe836ed5e31), China accounts for 20% of Bitcoin trading. My guess is that the percentage held by nutty investors is about 50% and the other 30% are in other countries like Venezuela, Turkey, and Iran. There aren’t that many anti-fiat nuts. And those that exist are largely broke. I think there is plenty of non-ideological money in cryptos right now. I do agree that a big selling point is being able to allude governments, for now anyway, which explains the China numbers you cite. A mainstream company like FB is in getting into it, there’s all kinds of research going on in this field. The interest in it far outweighs the ideologicals who started it. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/31 "2019-06-20T02:17:34Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Libra”? What, did someone already trademark Facebucks? Ddamn, dude; you’re on fire lately! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/32 "2019-06-20T04:41:16Z")
It kind of strikes me as renaming the gift card system. “I’ll pay you $20 to give me a piece of plastic/account number with some kind of balance on it. You (Facebook in this case) gets to hold/use my money until I chose to use that card/account, and then the cost will be deducted from my total, until I reach zero, or decide to add another $20” ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/33 "2019-06-20T05:28:19Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > Being a citizen of the US means you are subject to the laws of the US. All a W9 does is tell the company you hand it to your name, address, and tax ID number. The bank then sticks it in a filing cabinet and never looks at it again. If you or your dual citizen child don’t want to fill out the simplest of forms, stop being citizen of the country that requires it. The bank that receives the W-9 cannot “stick it in a filing cabinet and never look at it again”; they are obligated to report information about the account and the account-holder to the IRS each year, and in some cases withhold monies to be remitted to the IRS. It’s that regulatory burden that causes many foreign financial institutions to decline to do business with US citizens. > [@l0k1](#): > > I think “perjury” isn’t the word you are looking for, unless bank teller is a more important job where you live than it is here. No, perjury is probably the right word. Most countries require people opening bank accounts to make certain representations to the relevant bank regulator about their identity, tax situation, and so forth; lying to that regulator may well be a criminal act, and it has nothing to do with the status of the individual teller. > [@l0k1](#): > > I’m sorry it takes so long for your to open a bank account, but it only sounds slightly longer than openning a domestic bank account here. I think you missed the part where septimus’s son was NOT able to open an account even after spending the time. > [@Slash1972](#): > > It took two hours to ask the manager “Do you open accounts for US citizens?”? The relevant question was perhaps, “Will you open an account _for this particular US citizen_?”; because of the additional burden of IRS reporting requirements, foreign banks often decline to open accounts for US citizens whose business they don’t think will be profitable and worth the effort, even if they are happy to open accounts for other and wealthier/higher-profit US citizens. The answer to “Do you open accounts for US citizens?” is not infrequently “it depends; fill out this paperwork and we will decide whether you qualify.” ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/34 "2019-06-20T05:56:08Z")
If it is going to be just like a fiat currency, just instead of being controlled by a country, it is controlled by Facebook, then the US (and other countries) will have to find a way to nix it. Otherwise it would mean that global transactions could no longer be monitored by the government without the cooperation of Facebook. It’s good for the general public, but terrible for the government tax offices. Once your money goes off-grid and in to facebucks (let’s face it, that’s the better name - thanks Turnip) it is invisible. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/35 "2019-06-20T10:48:46Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The bank that receives the W-9 cannot “stick it in a filing cabinet and never look at it again”; they are obligated to report information about the account and the account-holder to the IRS each year, and in some cases withhold monies to be remitted to the IRS. It’s that regulatory burden that causes many foreign financial institutions to decline to do business with US citizens. > > No, perjury is probably the right word. Most countries require people opening bank accounts to make certain representations to the relevant bank regulator about their identity, tax situation, and so forth; lying to that regulator may well be a criminal act, and it has nothing to do with the status of the individual teller The bank enters your information into their database management system, most importantly your tax ID number. The W9 at that point is garbage to be stored. Smart banks scan the garbage and store it digitally and never look at it again. I guess I should stop lying to bank tellers about the niceness of my day, just to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/36 "2019-06-20T10:57:20Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > If it is going to be just like a fiat currency, just instead of being controlled by a country, it is controlled by Facebook, then the US (and other countries) will have to find a way to nix it. Otherwise it would mean that global transactions could no longer be monitored by the government without the cooperation of Facebook. It’s good for the general public, but terrible for the government tax offices. Once your money goes off-grid and in to facebucks (let’s face it, that’s the better name - thanks Turnip) it is invisible. As soon as you have to buy something, the money comes back on grid. I could have sacks of cash under my bed that I got from selling drugs. The day I try to buy a car or a house with them is the day that the IRS finds out I haven’t been paying my taxes. It would be the same if I tried to by a house or a car with my Libra. I could only shelter my annual clothing and food budget, and that would only work if Safeway and Old Navy accept Libras. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/37 "2019-06-20T14:01:31Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > I guess I should stop lying to bank tellers about the niceness of my day, just to be sure. Is lying to the tellers a criminal act in your country? Lying to the government is a criminal act in many countries, including mine ((18 U.S.C. § 1001), and that includes filling out government-required forms with false information. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/38 "2019-06-20T16:33:01Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > If it is going to be just like a fiat currency, just instead of being controlled by a country, it is controlled by Facebook, then the US (and other countries) will have to find a way to nix it. Otherwise it would mean that global transactions could no longer be monitored by the government without the cooperation of Facebook. It’s good for the general public, but terrible for the government tax offices. Once your money goes off-grid and in to facebucks (let’s face it, that’s the better name - thanks Turnip) it is invisible. I don’t think that’s true. American Airline miles are a fiat currency controlled by American Airlines. You can buy all sorts of stuff with them, world-wide, and those purchases can’t be monitored by the government without the cooperation of American Airlines. No one seems to care much. Also, agreed that we should all call them Facebucks. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/39 "2019-06-20T17:58:18Z")
Please site a case where someone was charged with perjury for failing to disclose to a bank teller their citizenship status. I don’t know why you are making such a big deal out of this. A bank made a business decision not to allow a business to open a commercial account. It sounds like you’re having an issue with capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690/40 "2019-06-20T18:54:27Z")
FaceBook already tried a cash system. Do any other long-time users remember it? You could use it for app purchases and coffee at some national chain. It flopped and when they decided to close it, they gave you a limited time to use it. I lost about $10. I see no reason to expect any different result this time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-private-scrip-facebooks-upcoming-attempt-at-it/835690.md?page=3)