# Let's talk about the Dakota Access Pipeline and the Protests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907 "2016-11-24T18:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/21 "2016-11-27T13:33:25Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Oh wow I came here because I just KNEW there would be sensible talk about all this but two days with no comments!? I have a lot of liberal friends who post nonstop about it and I wanted to know the dope. What’s truth and what’s hysteria? It’s true I don’t see much real info on the mainstream news sites. Just yeah they’re protesting and yeah the police are spraying them with water because they’re trying to break through barriers. > > Are the protesters just grasping on to a trend or do they have legitimate concerns that should be addressed? Gotta wait for Trump to take office so the liberal rage can be fully unleashed. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/22 "2016-11-27T13:37:29Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > What’s actually happening there? What are the protesters trying to achieve? What’s at stake for them? They are practicing the ancient principle of “nimby.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/23 "2016-11-27T14:16:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Cite? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/24 "2016-11-27T14:37:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They’re not fighting for the environment in general, they’re fighting to prevent a risk to their drinking water. Whatever vehicles they use don’t present a risk to their drinking water like the pipeline might. Again, they had 13 months of open discussion to vent their spleen. It’s been approved and it is being built along the same path as an existing gas pipeline which for some reason they didn’t protest. Their call for boycotts of Bismark businesses is going to backfire on them when people start boycotting casinos. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/25 "2016-11-27T14:40:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me give this a shot: > > OIL COMPANIES: We are building this pipeline near your land. Please stand back and observe the wonders of modern engineering. > > LAKOTA NATIVE AMERICANS: Um… we can’t help but notice that this pipeline is going to contain oil someday, and, also, it’s crossing the river upstream from our land. If it breaks, we are just a bit concerned about what will happen to our fresh water. > > OIL COMPANIES: Not to worry, my friends. We have asked the Army Corps of Engineers to assess the dangers. > > ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS: Yup, everything’s fine. > > LAKOTA: Aren’t you the guys that said the levees in New Orleans were just fine? > > ARMY CORPS: (hurt look) > > OIL COMPANIES: Well, it doesn’t matter. We are building the pipeline on easements we got from landowners, and you can’t stop us. > > LAKOTA: Would it be entirely out of line to point out that those people are “landowners” of land that our tribe once owned by treaty with the United States, and then the United States just cancelled the treaty and handed us a new one with less land? > > OIL COMPANIES: That was, like, 100 years ago! And you got some money for it. > > LAKOTA: Yes, money which we cannot even spend, and which is held “in trust” for us by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and for which we can’t even get an accounting, even though we sued them twenty years ago. Is that the money you mean? Because, honestly, it sort of feels like we never really got a fair hearing on losing that land. > > OIL COMPANIES: Not our fault. Ask the Department of Interior. > > DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR: You have reached the Department of Interior. Your call is very important to us. Listen carefully as menu options may have changed. > > LAKOTA: Look, this is all apparently legal, but it feels like we’re getting screwed. Again. > > OIL COMPANIES: Yawn. > > LAKOTA: I believe we shall protest. Did the oil companies not comply with all the requirements necessary to get the permit to build this pipeline? Because if they did, it would seem that the problem here is between the protesters and the government. Every project like this poses some risk to the environment and offers some benefit to society. It would be helpful in understanding this if someone could explain the details such as: 1. The permit process and whether or not the oil companies did what they were required to do. 2. Is the permit process (including environmental review) sufficient to weight the benefits against the risks? 3. How does this compare to other, similar projects. I’m not saying that you, **Bricker** , owe us those details, but your summary isn’t really very useful without them. It would be great if someone more expert in the field could chime in and help fight some ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/26 "2016-11-27T14:49:55Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Besides which, this isn’t a nebulous worldwide, or even national, issue these people are protesting; it is, ironically, about as local as you can get. How are they supposed to depend on local resources if they’re getting fucked up by outside interests? Except that argument is increasingly being made against all pipelines. Every pipeline will go near someone’s land. Pipelines are essential for the transportation of petroleum, upon which our modern civilization depends. “Depending on local resources” is a complete non-starter if you want a modern lifestyle, if you also oppose the extraction, transportation and use of petroleum products. I don’t see this as a “liberal hypocrisy” issue (sorry, **luci**!). I am genuinely puzzled: how do those who oppose pipelines propose that our modern civilization will continue, if the oil stays in the ground? (which I have also seen as a catchphrase by opponents of pipelines). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/27 "2016-11-27T15:58:17Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > …I don’t see this as a “liberal hypocrisy” issue (sorry, **luci**!)… _Egotist te absolvo._ Go, and sin somewhat less. > [@](#): > > …I am genuinely puzzled: how do those who oppose pipelines propose that our modern civilization will continue, if the oil stays in the ground? (which I have also seen as a catchphrase by opponents of pipelines). Is it your understanding that without this pipeline, our nation will grind to a halt? Can I sell you some clean coal? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/28 "2016-11-27T16:11:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is it your understanding that without this pipeline, our nation will grind to a halt? Can I sell you some clean coal? I’m open to opposing this project, but I need a good reason for doing so. I just spent an hour reading the Sunday paper, and while there were several articles about the protest, none delved into the actual issues at hand. One did imply that this was more about the Indians not wanting the pipeline on their sacred land than any actual worry about water pollution. So, let the information flood begin. How is this pipeline different from every other pipeline (to borrow a question from our Jewish friends)? What happens if this pipeline isn’t built? Did the government give the oil company a valid permit to build the pipeline? Are the engineering measures adequate to protect the drinking water? Let’s get **Longhorn Dave** in here, or anyone else who is experience in this field. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/29 "2016-11-27T16:14:30Z")
Waiting for **GIGO**? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/30 "2016-11-27T16:23:28Z")
Has he been beckent? ---
**Author:** ![Jennshark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Jennshark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jennshark)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/31 "2016-11-27T16:29:55Z")
The young woman whose arm was mangled by the “grenade” is a family friend ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/32 "2016-11-27T16:42:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What happens if this pipeline isn’t built? Crony capitalist Warren Buffet will get even wealthier. If the oil doesn’t come by way of pipeline, it will be shipped by train and Buffet owns those trains. There have been a number of train derailments that have not received much publicity because it would hurt Buffet’s business. He’s a good liberal, don’t you know. See if he was really a great investor, all we would have to do is mimic what he does and we’d all be rich. The secret of his success is leverage and bending the rules. The war on coal was also designed to have the coal shipped to China by trains making him even wealthier. It also seems to me a pipeline is better than a train for carbon emissions. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/33 "2016-11-27T17:07:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is it your understanding that without this pipeline, our nation will grind to a halt? Can I sell you some clean coal? No, this one pipeline is not crucial. However, as a form of transportation, pipelines are crucial. I have been seeing the same type of objections to any pipeline, in Canada and in the US. It’s always framed as a “local issue”, but if the same argument gets traction across the continent, then it is more than a local issue. I was also indirectly responding to **Leaper** ’s comment that the Indian group wants to develop local self-sufficiency. That’s a good thing, to a point, and that point is that any modern community that wants economic development needs petroleum and petroleum products. I grew up in southern rural Saskatchewan, which is very similar to North Dakota. And our communities could not thrive locally without refined petroleum, which was not a local commodity. If pipelines generally are now a rallying point , to be opposed as a matter of principle, how will local economies flourish? That is my point, not liberal hypocrisy, which is not my point. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/34 "2016-11-27T17:13:22Z")
Loving **Bricker** ’s summary, BTW. I am not sympathetic to some people’s notion that as long as all the papers are in order objectors should not protest at all or merely make a token demonstration and slink away, or go protest the government while the project itself goes ahead, or that if the protest goes on they should be penalized. That has been abused too often. As others have put it, in this case “we’re getting screwed again, aren’t we” is not something merely to yawn at, considering prior history. But that said, yes, you gotta put the pipelines, railroads, etc. _somewhere_. The question becomes, \*could \*this pipe have been routed elsewhere, that did not raise these issues? What do the assesment documents say about the decision making process (cost-benefit, safety, land availability) to use _this route? Because surely that is in writing somewhere, they did not just throw darts at a map. Were the Lakota asked then? Were they yawned at then_? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/35 "2016-11-27T17:22:04Z")
This pipeline has been re-routed, based on issues raised earlier in the planning process. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/36 "2016-11-27T17:22:12Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Loving **Bricker** ’s summary, BTW. > > … Yes, excellent summary. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/37 "2016-11-27T17:22:44Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But that said, yes, you gotta put the pipelines, railroads, etc. _somewhere_. The question becomes, \*could \*this pipe have been routed elsewhere, that did not raise these issues? What do the assesment documents say about the decision making process (cost-benefit, safety, land availability) to use _this route? Because surely that is in writing somewhere, they did not just throw darts at a map. Were the Lakota asked then? Were they yawned at then_? > **[The Protests Over The Dakota Access Pipeline Explained](https://dailycaller.com/2016/11/06/the-protests-over-the-dakota-access-pipeline-explained/)** > > Activists are blasting the Dakota oil pipeline, but here are some important facts to keep in mind about the pipeline **The Tribe Never Took Part In The Initial Consulting Process** “The Army Corps of Engineers attempted more than a dozen times between 2014 and 2016, according to court documents, to discuss the DAPL route with the Standing Rock. The tribe either failed to respond to requests for consultation or dragged its feet during the process.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/38 "2016-11-27T17:23:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > No, this one pipeline is not crucial. However, as a form of transportation, pipelines are crucial. I have been seeing the same type of objections to any pipeline, in Canada and in the US. It’s always framed as a “local issue”, but if the same argument gets traction across the continent, then it is more than a local issue. Can’t really map it to the prairies’ situation, but around here opposition to fossil-fuels infrastructure seems at times to have an element of seeking to make fossil fuel use less economically advantageous, in the face of how the market alone does not seem to be driving us towards conservation or use of renewables as much or as fast as some prefer. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/39 "2016-11-27T17:47:21Z")
> [@"\[Bismarck](#): > > ([Pipeline route plan first called for crossing north of Bismarck](http://bismarcktribune.com/news/state-and-regional/pipeline-route-plan-first-called-for-crossing-north-of-bismarck/article_64d053e4-8a1a-5198-a1dd-498d386c933c.html))"]An early proposal for the Dakota Access Pipeline called for the project to cross the Missouri River … about 10 miles north of Bismarck … The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers evaluated the Bismarck route and concluded it was not a viable option for many reasons. One reason mentioned … is the proximity to wellhead source water protection areas that are avoided to protect municipal water supply wells… the Bismarck route would have been 11 miles longer with more road crossings and waterbody and wetland crossings. It also would have been difficult to stay 500 or more feet away from homes … would have crossed an area considered by federal pipeline regulators as a “high consequence area,” which is an area determined to have the most significant adverse consequences in the event of a pipeline spill. > > The corps, which issued a permit for the water crossing, said the pipeline will be installed 92 feet below the riverbed with horizontal directional drilling methods to minimize impacts. The Corps also noted safeguards that will be in place, including remote monitoring of the pipeline and emergency response plans… > > Public Service Commissioners defended their approval of the pipeline project this week, saying it was thoroughly reviewed and considered risks to water bodies. The state regulators also said they held a 13-month review process but didn’t hear these concerns from the tribe. Curiously, when one looks at the map, the pipeline originates in Stanley, north of the river, goes westward to cross it just downriver from the Yellowstone confluence, then runs southeastward to where it crosses the river _again_, near where the protest is taking place. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/40 "2016-11-27T18:21:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This pipeline has been re-routed, based on issues raised earlier in the planning process. The pipeline is routed next to an existing pipeline where it crosses the river. It’s following an established route. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=3)