# Let's talk about the Dakota Access Pipeline and the Protests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907 "2016-11-24T18:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/41 "2016-11-27T18:38:47Z")
> [@Jennshark](#): > > The young woman whose arm was mangled by the “grenade” is a family friend ☹ It’s sad to see this but it was all avoidable if the tribe had participated in the year long open discussion of plans. They could have crowd sourced an engineer to question the existing pipeline right-of-way used on the gas line. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/42 "2016-11-27T19:03:05Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Loving **Bricker** ’s summary, BTW. It’s a lovely fantasy narrative but In order for it to be a summary it needs to be based on fact. The Lokota never engaged the process and there were never any claims the levees in New Orleans could withstand a level 5 hurricane so it’s a straw man argument that it was an engineering failure. The city sits in a flood plain and the weak points were known. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/43 "2016-11-27T19:47:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > By the time they finish it, we won’t want Canada’s oil any more, we’ll want their water. FWIW, this pipeline is designed to carry Bakken shale oil, not Canadian tar sands. In cases where oil interests want to pipe tar sands across America, my response is that they must either 1) refine it into oil in Canada first or 2) take a flying leap. Bakken oil is at least conventional oil, and therefore not as dangerous. But try telling that to people downriver from a spill… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/44 "2016-11-27T20:27:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They’re not fighting for the environment in general, they’re fighting to prevent a risk to their drinking water. Whatever vehicles they use don’t present a risk to their drinking water like the pipeline might. Thus the hypocrisy. Oil infrastructure is fine in someone else’s backyard. Same despicable behavior Californians engage in. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/45 "2016-11-27T20:48:56Z")
I don’t see a real need for this pipeline other than to increase profits for some companies. I do believe they have a legitimate cause and they have been protesting peacefully and there’s no call to spray them with water in freezing temperatures. We’ve had a lot of problems from poorly designed infrastructure like this, I’m sure the level of safety could be greatly increased but that has been disregarded because it would reduce profits. Just those factors make me support their cause. I believe I’ll send them some money for their legal fund but do intend to look more closely at the details. But no matter what I find the harsh tactics used by authorities are unjustified, no one is harmed by delaying the construction of this pipeline. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/46 "2016-11-27T20:59:42Z")
Loans, financing, interest costs. Money is suffering. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/47 "2016-11-27T21:05:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Loans, financing, interest costs. Money is suffering. Oh poor money! Let’s start a fund to help it. ETA: It appears you’re on my side, so we’re both being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/48 "2016-11-27T21:26:31Z")
Supposedly this delay is costing $100 million. This isn’t good for investors. You know any one with a 401k or 403b? $100 million is no harm yet 10¢ for a bag is pit worthy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/49 "2016-11-27T21:32:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Supposedly this delay is costing $100 million. This isn’t good for investors. You know any one with a 401k or 403b? $100 million is no harm yet 10¢ for a bag is pit worthy. You know that 100 mill is nothing to an oil company right? Do you really think that this hold-up is having any appreciable effect on the stock price? Do you really think that anyone in the middle class holding a 401k could possibly even detect the dip in their investments from this protest? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/50 "2016-11-27T21:38:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You know that 100 mill is nothing to an oil company right? Do you really think that this hold-up is having any appreciable effect on the stock price? Do you really think that anyone in the middle class holding a 401k could possibly even detect the dip in their investments from this protest? Even if what you say is true, costing a company $100,000,000 out of NIMBYism isn’t right. You wouldn’t be so dismissive if it were your investment. And those protesters aren’t bicycling or riding horses to the site. They are driving gas guzzlers. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/51 "2016-11-27T21:39:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me give this a shot: > > OIL COMPANIES: We are building this pipeline near your land. Please stand back and observe the wonders of modern engineering. > > LAKOTA NATIVE AMERICANS: Um… we can’t help but notice that this pipeline is going to contain oil someday, and, also, it’s crossing the river upstream from our land. If it breaks, we are just a bit concerned about what will happen to our fresh water. > > OIL COMPANIES: Not to worry, my friends. We have asked the Army Corps of Engineers to assess the dangers. > > ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS: Yup, everything’s fine. > > LAKOTA: Aren’t you the guys that said the levees in New Orleans were just fine? > > ARMY CORPS: (hurt look) > > OIL COMPANIES: Well, it doesn’t matter. We are building the pipeline on easements we got from landowners, and you can’t stop us. > > LAKOTA: Would it be entirely out of line to point out that those people are “landowners” of land that our tribe once owned by treaty with the United States, and then the United States just cancelled the treaty and handed us a new one with less land? > > OIL COMPANIES: That was, like, 100 years ago! And you got some money for it. > > LAKOTA: Yes, money which we cannot even spend, and which is held “in trust” for us by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and for which we can’t even get an accounting, even though we sued them twenty years ago. Is that the money you mean? Because, honestly, it sort of feels like we never really got a fair hearing on losing that land. > > OIL COMPANIES: Not our fault. Ask the Department of Interior. > > DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR: You have reached the Department of Interior. Your call is very important to us. Listen carefully as menu options may have changed. > > LAKOTA: Look, this is all apparently legal, but it feels like we’re getting screwed. Again. > > OIL COMPANIES: Yawn. > > LAKOTA: I believe we shall protest. This was exactly what I supposed was going on without doing a lot of research. I also think that the pipeline can be rerouted in a way that is safer for the water but at greater expense for the oil company. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/52 "2016-11-27T21:42:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t see a real need for this pipeline other than to increase profits for some companies. I don’t see that it’s the government’s job to determine what we “need”. There are many, many things that are built that are not “needed”. > [@](#): > > I do believe they have a legitimate cause and they have been protesting peacefully and there’s no call to spray them with water in freezing temperatures. Agreed on the 2nd point. They should not be sprayed with water in freezing temps. > [@](#): > > We’ve had a lot of problems from poorly designed infrastructure like this, I’m sure the level of safety could be greatly increased but that has been disregarded because it would reduce profits. Which specific designs are you talking about here that are inadequate? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/53 "2016-11-27T21:44:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Thus the hypocrisy. Oil infrastructure is fine in someone else’s backyard. Same despicable behavior Californians engage in. Maybe I am missing your point but there is oil drilling and there are huge refineries in California. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/54 "2016-11-27T22:06:41Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Even if what you say is true, costing a company $100,000,000 out of NIMBYism isn’t right. You wouldn’t be so dismissive if it were your investment. And those protesters aren’t bicycling or riding horses to the site. They are driving gas guzzlers. Costing a company money is always a bit of a pain for the company, but it is also a cost of doing business. I have customers that end up costing me more money than I make off of them. I have costs that occasionally spiral out of my control, and end up costing me much more than initially planned. As this company losing 100mill over a delay in a pipeline that will make them billions, I would consider that to be about the same proportionally as when a client shows up at my business about 5 minutes late for their appointment. So, sure, if it was my investment, I wouldn’t be dismissive, and I may even be a bit annoyed, but I would also realize that this loss is just a cost of doing business, and not get all shitty about it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/55 "2016-11-27T23:19:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You know that 100 mill is nothing to an oil company right? It’s not? Really? And how did you come to this conclusion? Oil profit margins tend to be in the [6.5% range](http://www.forbes.com/2011/05/10/oil-company-earnings.html). 100 million is 3% of the investment. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Do you really think that this hold-up is having any appreciable effect on the stock price? Do you really think that anyone in the middle class holding a 401k could possibly even detect the dip in their investments from this protest? Yes. The project was already properly vetted and that process was ignored by the tribe. There aren’t that many Standing Rock Sioux in the crowd of protestors who are traveling from all over the world to peacefully set fire to stuff. [No one makes this clearer than Robert Fool Bear Sr](http://www.cnn.com/2016/10/29/us/dakota-pipeline-standing-rock-sioux/)., 54, district chairman of Cannon Ball. The town he runs, estimated population of 840, is just a few miles from the action. It’s so close that, given the faceoffs with law enforcement, you have to pass through a police checkpoint to reach it. It’s about time people heard from folks like him, he says. This is about outside agitators who don’t have a clue what they’re protesting. And it appears there are plenty of people who want to protest it without knowing anything about the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/56 "2016-11-27T23:28:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Costing a company money is always a bit of a pain for the company, but it is also a cost of doing business. No it’s not the cost of doing business. It’s the cost of hooliganism. The cost of doing business as the money spent researching the best route and then vetting it through the proper agencies. A process that openly invites anyone with an issue. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/57 "2016-11-27T23:48:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No it’s not the cost of doing business. It’s the cost of hooliganism. The cost of doing business as the money spent researching the best route and then vetting it through the proper agencies. A process that openly invites anyone with an issue. A distinction w/o a difference. If you build a shop in a bad neighborhood, the events which occur in that neighborhood—though they be the acts of hooligans—are the costs of doing business in that neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/58 "2016-11-28T01:17:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t see that it’s the government’s job to determine what we “need”. There are many, many things that are built that are not “needed”. Did I mention the government? Anyway, when it comes to endangering public resources like drinking water it is the government’s job to determine what we need. > [@](#): > > Which specific designs are you talking about here that are inadequate? [Start with all the ones used in these cases.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/59 "2016-11-28T01:48:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Thus the hypocrisy. Oil infrastructure is fine in someone else’s backyard. Same despicable behavior Californians engage in. So it’s never okay to protest a particular oil project? It’s always hypocritical, if one uses modern technology in any way whatsoever? I don’t buy that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/60 "2016-11-28T02:03:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Did I mention the government? Anyway, when it comes to endangering public resources like drinking water it is the government’s job to determine what we need. No one yet in this thread has demonstrated that a danger exists, and if it does how much of a danger. Lost of folks have claimed there is a danger, but that’s to the same thing. > [@](#): > > [Start with all the ones used in these cases.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century) Wow, a wikipedia dump. As valuable as a Google dump. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=4)