# Let's talk about the Dakota Access Pipeline and the Protests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907 "2016-11-24T18:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/81 "2016-11-28T05:18:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Does anybody _want_ one of these “in their back yard”? Anyone petition the Gov to send its blessings their way? Could it be that part of their ire is their impression that they are, politically, the weakest demographic there is, period? And that political weakness forms a major part in explaining how this gift was bestowed upon them. So why didn’t they participate in the review process to try to get changes? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/82 "2016-11-28T05:50:13Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’m also curious why the band did not participate in the review process? That does seriously undercut the rationale for the protests. If they had an opportunity to raise their concerns, before a body which had the power to order changes to the pipeline’s path, why the heck didn’t they do so? Have they explained why they didn’t do so? > > If they had an opportunity to make submissions and didn’t do so, I’m afraid that undercuts **Bricker’s** summary of events. There are two possibilities I could see. One would be that the NAs are so accustomed to being ass-fucked-sideways-with-cholla by the white man that they figured any participation in the process would amount to assenting to more of that.“_We respectfully oppose being sodomized with spiny vegetation_” Thank you for your input. The committee rules in favor of continued spiny sodomy, done sideways.So you have played the game properly and lost. That kind of leaves the notion of protest rather flat. The other possibility is bullshit. Which is to say, there is quite a lot of that flying back and forth over this. The claim is that the tribe was invited to participate. Do we have this in black and white? Did the planners really do due diligence? I suppose we ought to believe them on that point, because they say they did, but right now, it is hard to know whom we can believe. ---
**Author:** ![BrerRobert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@BrerRobert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrerRobert)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/83 "2016-11-28T06:07:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Spend a lot of time at environmental protests, do you? Pack a lunch, take the family, make an outing of it? The eco-idiots abound, pretty hard to miss them. But thanks for your snarky little insinuation about the veracity of my claim that I am familiar with their ignorance. Such a valuable addition to the discussion. We must be hitting pretty close to home for you to respond in such a manner. It’s obviously personal. Did you get tricked into signing a petition to ban water or something? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/84 "2016-11-28T06:24:55Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Uh … Wrong! 😉 Nope. > **[No Keystone, No Problem: The Oil Industry Is Making Other Pipeline Plans](https://newrepublic.com/article/122547/no-keystone-no-problem-oil-industry-making-other-plans)** > > TransCanada has learned a few lessons from years of Keystone delay. “In the meantime, rail is the go-to substitute for missing infrastructure to ship oil from Canada to the U.S. Sixty percent of Alberta’s unprocessed oil already makes its way to American refineries by rail and pipelines. And in 2012, Canada exported 16,000 barrels of oil per day by rail to the U.S. In the first quarter of 2015, it exported 120,000 barrels per day, which might rise depending on whether global oil prices begin to increase again.” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/85 "2016-11-28T06:28:00Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Well don’t expect to convince many, for example, if you are protesting electricity generation while using the internet. Sure you can protest but only a fringe will take you seriously. That would fit if they were protesting oil in general, rather than one specific project. Perhaps you were unaware of why they were protesting? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/86 "2016-11-28T06:29:15Z")
> [@](#): > > The eco-idiots abound, pretty hard to miss them…Did you get tricked into signing a petition to ban water or something? Do I misunderstand? You formed your objective opinion of “eco-idiots” from repeated close observation? Your wording did imply some considerable experience, as well as a breezy contempt, as if to say you _know_ for a _fact_ that most ecologically concerned people are crunchy nutbars. Not what you were trying to say? Well, then, maybe try again. ---
**Author:** ![BrerRobert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@BrerRobert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrerRobert)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/87 "2016-11-28T06:54:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Do I misunderstand? You formed your objective opinion of “eco-idiots” from repeated close observation? Your wording did imply some considerable experience, as well as a breezy contempt, as if to say you _know_ for a _fact_ that most ecologically concerned people are crunchy nutbars. > > Not what you were trying to say? Well, then, maybe try again. Where did you get the absurd idea that I was speaking about “most ecologically concerned people”? Most ecologically concerned people don’t join mobs intent on forcefully preventing the construction of modern, efficient, and relatively safe energy infrastructure. Those mobs are composed of people more concerned with feeling important and belonging to a group that is sticking it to the man than actually accomplishing anything beneficial to our environment. Your post displays the same sort of logical failings that cause people to expect special status and privileges simply because they have appointed themselves “water protectors”. It is infantile. And yes I have formed my opinion based on actual interactions with such people. Your silly questions are premised on the false notion that the only way to have such interactions are at actual protests, as if such people and their profound ignorance only exist at these protests, rather that being widely and annoyingly dispersed throughout society. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/88 "2016-11-28T07:55:50Z")
North Dakota is [already blanketed with crude](http://www.pipeline101.com/Where-Are-Pipelines-Located) pipelines. They do not need to use trains at all. DAPL is superfluous. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/89 "2016-11-28T08:32:15Z")
I think this is as much a lashing out at their historical treatment in general, and the illegal theft of their land (not by foreign conquest but by repeated violation of treaties enacted subsequent to that conquest), as much as it’s about environmental concerns; although those concerns are certainly a part of it. It has to hurt terribly to see someone using what they see as their land in a way that they feel threatens damage to the rest of their land and what’s left of their way of life, and to have absolutely no say in it. Whatever the arguments about the necessity of oil and all of the risks that come with it, I have to sympathize with these people. And I commend **Bricker** for his surprisingly liberal (and entertaining!) viewpoint on this. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/90 "2016-11-28T12:49:09Z")
> [@BrerRobert](#): > > The eco-idiots abound, pretty hard to miss them. But thanks for your snarky little insinuation about the veracity of my claim that I am familiar with their ignorance. Holy shit! Some one questioned the veracity of your claim in a debate? Say it ain’t so. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/91 "2016-11-28T14:06:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > North Dakota is [already blanketed with crude](http://www.pipeline101.com/Where-Are-Pipelines-Located) pipelines. They do not need to use trains at all. DAPL is superfluous. I have to say, I’m damn skeptical someone would spend millions and millions of dollars building a pipeline for no reason. Showing a map with colorful lines and saying “look at all the lines, any more pipelines are superfluous” would be like showing a subway map of a large city and saying “obviously this city needs no more mass transit, because there are already subways.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/92 "2016-11-28T15:43:12Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I think this is as much a lashing out at their historical treatment in general, and the illegal theft of their land (not by foreign conquest but by repeated violation of treaties enacted subsequent to that conquest), as much as it’s about environmental concerns; although those concerns are certainly a part of it. > > It has to hurt terribly to see someone using what they see as their land in a way that they feel threatens damage to the rest of their land and what’s left of their way of life, and to have absolutely no say in it. Just to be clear, the pipeline comes close to, but does not enter, land controlled by the tribe. At issue (I did some digging this morning) is where to cross the Missouri River. If the pipeline is to be built, it has to cross somewhere. The only question (assuming the pipeline is to be built) is where and how. The current proposal is to dig deep below the river and run the pipeline under it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/93 "2016-11-28T16:06:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The OP opened this thread to solicit information about the issues surrounding this pipeline and protests going on. I thought that was an excellent idea since so little information seem to be available. As I noted earlier, I read every article in both Sunday papers I read today (Merc News and NYT), but not much there, either. You, and others, have made some pretty bold claims in this thread. Don’t you think you should be able to back them up? That is all. I have a lot to do today. Would you mind pointing out which of my claims are pretty **bold**? > [@TriPolar](#): > > I support the protesters. Bricker summarized their case quite clearly. The protesters themselves are the only people being harmed by their actions. I need to find a way to help them. > [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t see a real need for this pipeline other than to increase profits for some companies. I do believe they have a legitimate cause and they have been protesting peacefully and there’s no call to spray them with water in freezing temperatures. We’ve had a lot of problems from poorly designed infrastructure like this, I’m sure the level of safety could be greatly increased but that has been disregarded because it would reduce profits. Just those factors make me support their cause. I believe I’ll send them some money for their legal fund but do intend to look more closely at the details. But no matter what I find the harsh tactics used by authorities are unjustified, no one is harmed by delaying the construction of this pipeline. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Oh poor money! Let’s start a fund to help it. > > ETA: It appears you’re on my side, so we’re both being sarcastic. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Did I mention the government? Anyway, when it comes to endangering public resources like drinking water it is the government’s job to determine what we need. > [Start with all the ones used in these cases.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents_in_the_United_States_in_the_21st_century) > [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m tired, it’s been a long long weekend. Not an extra long regular weekend, it’s been a long weekend, and it seems extra long too. I mention that because you usually have some kind of point you’re trying to make but I’m not getting it and I’ll just chalk that up to being tired. Maybe tomorrow I’ll figure out that you aren’t trying to say that oil pipelines aren’t a potential danger to ground water. But at the moment that’s what it sounds like. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/94 "2016-11-28T16:12:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I have a lot to do today. Would you mind pointing out which of my claims are pretty **bold**? “ **I don’t see a real need for this pipeline other than to increase profits for some companies** ” ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/95 "2016-11-28T16:19:24Z")
It sounds like the protesting could be about more than one issue (environmental) as is shown in [their complaint filed on 7/27/16 for declaratory and injunctive relief](http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2016/images/08/31/north.dakota.pdf). > [@](#): > > The construction and operation of the pipeline, as authorized by the Corps, threatens the Tribe’s environmental and economic well-being, and would damage and destroy sites of great historic, religious, and cultural significance to the Tribe. The lawsuit notes that : > [@](#): > > Consultation must occur regarding sites with “religious and cultural significance” even if they occur on ancestral or ceded land. Id. § 800.2(c)(2)(II)(D). It further states: > [@](#): > > 1. The Tribe’s cultural resources are historically and culturally interrelated over the entirety of the land within the Tribe’s traditional territory, within and outside of the exterior boundaries of the Reservation. Protection of the Tribe’s cultural heritage is of significant importance to the Tribe. Destruction or damage to any one cultural resource, site, or landscape contributes to destruction of the Tribe’s culture, history, and religion. Injury to the Tribe’s cultural resources causes injury to the Tribe and its people. > 2. Cultural resources of significance to the Tribe are located on the lands that are the subject of this action and adjacent lands. In addition to specific archaeological sites that have been identified to date, there are numerous significant culturally important sites that have not been identified. The lands within the pipeline route are culturally and spiritually significant. > 3. The Tribe and its members also have a cultural interest in preserving the quality of the land, water, air, fauna, and flora within the Tribe’s traditional territory, within and outside the Reservation. For example, the Tribe is concerned with impacts to the habitat of wildlife species such as piping plovers, least tern, Dakota skipper, and pallid sturgeon, among others. The Tribe has a particular concern for bald eagles, which remain federally protected and play a significant role in the Tribe’s culture, Which seems like a blanket coverage that all of the land that the tribe has ever been on could be of significance. Further, according to the complaint: > [@](#): > > DAPL claims to have completed cultural resource surveys along the entire pipeline length. However, the out-of-state, non-Tribal consultants hired by DAPL to do cultural surveys are unable to assess the potential cultural significance of sites in this area to the Tribes. Only Tribally trained and approved consultants have the ability to assess such sites. The Tribe has never had the opportunity to discuss protocols for cultural surveys, or participate in the surveys that were conducted. Instead, it was provided copies of partial surveys after they were completed. And the problem could be compounded since: > [@](#): > > The Tribe’s concerns were highlighted in June of 2016 when archaeologists working on behalf of Upper Sioux Tribe discovered a site of great religious and cultural significance to Oceti Sakowin in the pipeline’s route in Iowa. The site was not discovered by DAPL during its cultural resource surveys, even though it lay directly in the pipeline’s route. The complaint then states: > [@](#): > > At the time of filing this complaint, DAPL has not executed agreements with all landowners, and eminent domain proceedings are underway in several states. But according to this, [100% of the landowners in North Dakota voluntarily signed easements allowing the pipeline to be constructed through their property.](https://mwalliancenow.org/blog/dakota-access-easements-95-percent/) So the NIMBY thing doesn’t apply to the personal/business landowners, however, what seems to be missing is what percentage of that land is owned by the government. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/96 "2016-11-28T16:22:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “ **I don’t see a real need for this pipeline other than to increase profits for some companies** ” Do you think I do see such a need? I assure you I don’t. If there is such a need please point it out. > [@TriPolar](#): > > …but do intend to look more closely at the details. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/97 "2016-11-28T16:27:34Z")
[This article](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-ed-standing-rock-sioux-other-side-110916-20161109-story.html) popped up on one of my news sites last week. Basically, the Army Corp of Engineers tried multiple times to meet with tribal leaders, only to be ignored. Permits were not obtained illegally and the pipeline was not rushed. This is from federal court documents. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/98 "2016-11-28T17:35:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Do you think I do see such a need? I assure you I don’t. If there is such a need please point it out. I like you too much as a poster to carry on like this. I apologize if I somehow misrepresented what you were trying to say. Let’s just drop it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/99 "2016-11-28T17:50:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I like you too much as a poster to carry on like this. I apologize if I somehow misrepresented what you were trying to say. Let’s just drop it. I understand what you’re getting at. My primary concern is the way the protesters are being treated. I think they have a legitimate concern, but concern doesn’t necessarily translate to reality. I do not see what I consider a true need for this pipeline, i.e. I don’t see that there is a benefit that outweighs the potential danger from the low safety standards that have been applied in some cases in the past. In the end if enough diligence and due process has been applied by government I don’t have a strong case to make against the pipeline itself, but they may just have to wait out the protesters. And I like you as a poster also and keep forgetting to say that I hope you had nice Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/100 "2016-11-28T18:36:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I understand what you’re getting at. My primary concern is the way the protesters are being treated. I think they have a legitimate concern, but concern doesn’t necessarily translate to reality. I do not see what I consider a true need for this pipeline, i.e. I don’t see that there is a benefit that outweighs the potential danger from the low safety standards that have been applied in some cases in the past. In the end if enough diligence and due process has been applied by government I don’t have a strong case to make against the pipeline itself, but they may just have to wait out the protesters. > > And I like you as a poster also and keep forgetting to say that I hope you had nice Thanksgiving. Thanks. Hope you had a nice New England Thanksgiving as well. Having been in CA for so long, that’s one thing I often miss. And yes, per my earlier response, I do agree with you about the treatment of the protestors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=6)