# Let's talk about the Dakota Access Pipeline and the Protests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907 "2016-11-24T18:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/101 "2016-11-28T18:43:19Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > A distinction w/o a difference. > > If you build a shop in a bad neighborhood, the events which occur in that neighborhood—though they be the acts of hooligans—are the costs of doing business in that neighborhood. This is where “food deserts” come from. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/102 "2016-11-28T21:29:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, the pipeline comes close to, but does not enter, land controlled by the tribe. At issue (I did some digging this morning) is where to cross the Missouri River. If the pipeline is to be built, it has to cross somewhere. The only question (assuming the pipeline is to be built) is where and how. The current proposal is to dig deep below the river and run the pipeline under it. Right but, and correct me if I’m wrong, it does enter land that was by treaty controlled by the tribe, but which was illegally taken from them when the government saw fit to violate the treaty. So they still see the land as legally theirs even if there’s nothing they can do to enforce that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/103 "2016-11-28T23:14:27Z")
Of possible interest: [‘We’re Not Going to Go to War’: The Chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux Preaches Peace and Patience](http://www.vice.com/read/interview-standing-rock-sioux-chairman) > [@](#): > > \*\*Is there anything that you’re not seeing in the coverage of Standing Rock, whether it’s misinformation, or something you’d like to see being talked about? \*\* > > When we stand up for something like this, something as simple as water, it also elevates the whole discussion to what is happening to water around the world. It looks like there’s a lot of water out there, but around the world there are people fighting for water. There will be a time when we won’t be going to war over oil, but we’ll be going to wars over water. > > We’ve seen a big community pop up over there (the camps at Standing Rock). I go down there and I look at the waste. There’s a lot of waste. It’s a distraction from the water. If we’re about this environment, we would be protecting Mother Earth. We wouldn’t be hurting her. And yet, we’re punching holes all over down there (pitching tents), in Mother Earth. That’s a sacred place. But there’s no regard. It’s about instant gratification. When I look at that camp, I always think: What’s going to happen when this is over? Who’s going to clean that up? Who’s going to put that land back to its natural state? Before this entire movement started, that was some of the most beautiful land around. There was a place down there where eagles, over 100 eagles would come and land. There were game down there—deer, pheasants, elk, geese. Now, it’s occupied by people. And when masses of people come to one place, we don’t take care of it. > > So how do we make it better? I heard that they’re digging pits down there for their human waste. That’s a flood zone. So when the floodwaters come up, that waste is going to be contaminating the water. We’re no different than the oil company, if we’re fighting for water. What’s going to happen when people leave? Who has to clean it up? Who has to refurbish it? It’s going to be us, the people who live here. Not only that, but there are relationships that are being damaged because of unlawful actions, violent actions, violent behavior against law enforcement. Law enforcement lives here. And we live here. The water protectors are going to be gone. When this is all done, I have to go up and clean that up. We have to reestablish our relationships then. So this is a good thing and I welcome everybody because we’re all standing up for our water, but are we really mindful of what we’re doing? Because, what’s going to happen when this is done. [Disclosure: I own shares in ETP.] ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/104 "2016-11-28T23:57:46Z")
Certainly he has a point about the problems being caused by some of the protestors but that says nothing one way or the other about whether the cause itself is just. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/105 "2016-11-29T02:15:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This is where “food deserts” come from. Well that’s just the cost of being hooligans. Let them eat Twinkies. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/106 "2016-11-29T02:19:50Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Certainly he has a point about the problems being caused by some of the protestors but that says nothing one way or the other about whether the cause itself is just. What says whether the cause is just is due diligence which the oil company and government engineers did. You can’t say the same for the protestors who are actually fouling the area. Without any credible evidence they move from the category of environmentalists to anarchists. They’re gone in a week so it’s a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/107 "2016-11-29T02:29:12Z")
Suppose I think my neighbors house belongs to me because of a 100 year old title irregularity. I hear he wants to work on cars, so I’m afraid he might spill oil and contaminate my well. So I feel have the right to occupy his garage, smash up his car, and get a bunch of people to help by portraying myself as a victim. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/108 "2016-11-29T10:11:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What says whether the cause is just is due diligence which the oil company and government engineers did. You can’t say the same for the protestors who are actually fouling the area. Without any credible evidence they move from the category of environmentalists to anarchists. They’re gone in a week so it’s a moot point. Which ignores my point about whether or not the cause is just. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/109 "2016-11-29T10:21:47Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > Suppose I think my neighbors house belongs to me because of a 100 year old title irregularity. I hear he wants to work on cars, so I’m afraid he might spill oil and contaminate my well. So I feel have the right to occupy his garage, smash up his car, and get a bunch of people to help by portraying myself as a victim. Do you seriously believe that a title irregularity is comparable to what was done to native Americans? I don’t even know how to respond to that. No one here is justifying hooliganism. The bad actions of some are not logically connected to the justness of the cause. A cause can be just in spite of the bad behavior of some of its advocates. In any case, from what I’m hearing, the problems are mostly being caused by outsiders rather than tribe members. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/110 "2016-11-29T11:50:28Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Right but, and correct me if I’m wrong, it does enter land that was by treaty controlled by the tribe, but which was illegally taken from them when the government saw fit to violate the treaty. So they still see the land as legally theirs even if there’s nothing they can do to enforce that claim. Cite? Please explain what happened with regard to the treaty. While you’re at it, please explain why they haven’t tried to find a remedy through conventional remedies such as the courts? Perhaps, the most famous native American that I can think of Elizabeth Warren could take up their cause in the Senate. Why has she been so silent on this issue? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/111 "2016-11-29T12:17:04Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Cite? > > Please explain what happened with regard to the treaty. While you’re at it, please explain why they haven’t tried to find a remedy through conventional remedies such as the courts? Perhaps, the most famous native American that I can think of Elizabeth Warren could take up their cause in the Senate. Why has she been so silent on this issue? If you’re genuinely interested in details, I’ll provide them. But as a general rule, redress through the courts, today, for treaties that were executed between the United States and various Native American tribes, and then unilaterally abrogated by the United States, is not possible for a number of reasons that don’t rest on the legality of the abrogation. In shorter words: you cannot argue that the lack of a remedy now, present day, means that what happened then was appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/112 "2016-11-29T14:52:05Z")
[Complaints grow over whites turning Dakota Access protest into hippie festival](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/28/complaints-whites-co-opting-dakota-access-protest/) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/113 "2016-11-29T15:01:08Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > [Complaints grow over whites turning Dakota Access protest into hippie festival](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/28/complaints-whites-co-opting-dakota-access-protest/) Same as it ever was. That’s pretty much exactly what happened in the “shanty towns” see up on college campuses during the apartheid protests in the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/114 "2016-11-29T15:10:13Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Same as it ever was. That’s pretty much exactly what happened in the “shanty towns” see up on college campuses during the apartheid protests in the 80s. Anti-war protests in the 60s and 70s too. We should be able to look past that and focus on the issues. Protesters should also be serious about the issues and the goals too. At first it will look good to have the most people around to draw attention to the issue but trying to relive the Woodstock experience is not the issue and the well-meaning ought to do a better job, and the good-timers should just stay away because they are not going to help in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/115 "2016-11-29T15:18:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If you’re genuinely interested in details, I’ll provide them. But as a general rule, redress through the courts, today, for treaties that were executed between the United States and various Native American tribes, and then unilaterally abrogated by the United States, is not possible for a number of reasons that don’t rest on the legality of the abrogation. > > In shorter words: you cannot argue that the lack of a remedy now, present day, means that what happened then was appropriate. Yes, please describe what happened. There’s always political relief. The Federal government could buy the land in dispute with eminent domain and give it to the Lakota tribe. How much could it be worth? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/116 "2016-11-29T15:28:55Z")
> [@Doyle](#): > > [Complaints grow over whites turning Dakota Access protest into hippie festival](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/28/complaints-whites-co-opting-dakota-access-protest/) Or, a rather more pithy formulation: [**Standing Rock: North Dakota access pipeline demonstrators say white people are ‘treating protest like Burning Man’**](http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/standing-rock-north-dakota-access-pipeline-burning-man-festival-a7443266.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/117 "2016-11-29T15:56:47Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > [**Standing Rock: North Dakota access pipeline demonstrators say white people are ‘treating protest like Burning Man’**](http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/standing-rock-north-dakota-access-pipeline-burning-man-festival-a7443266.html) [Why is that a problem](http://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-principles/)? Seriously, the only complaints I read in that article were that white people showed up and one of them played a guitar. Oh yeah, and two white people stood off to the side and talked about Australia while the smoked. The horror! “Oh my god! There’s more than one white person here! Do I hear someone strumming a guitar? It’s JUST LIKE BURNING MAN!” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/118 "2016-11-29T18:07:06Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Sure, if this is just an isolated incident. But increasingly, there are protests aimed at pipelines generally. There are? Like what ones? How many have there been and over what time period? > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That does raise the issue: what alternative do the opponents of pipelines propose? Again, I don’t think it’s helpful to frame the issue in term of hypocrisy, but as a matter of transport and energy policy, what alternative is ring set out, other than “pipelines are bad.” Can you offer cites that support your assertion that there have been protests against pipelines in general? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/119 "2016-11-29T18:13:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As I’ve already cited, the tribe in question didn’t involve themselves in the process and to this day are not unified in this holy grail of environmental Armageddon. I’m sorry but I don’t recall a cite from you about this, just that you’ve posted it repeatedly. Could you (re)post your cite that there was no involvement during the approval process by people opposed? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/120 "2016-11-29T18:16:53Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > [Why is that a problem](http://burningman.org/culture/philosophical-center/10-principles/)? > > Seriously, the only complaints I read in that article were that white people showed up and one of them played a guitar. Oh yeah, and two white people stood off to the side and talked about Australia while the smoked. The horror! “Oh my god! There’s more than one white person here! Do I hear someone strumming a guitar? It’s JUST LIKE BURNING MAN!” :smack: An acquaintance of mine is there. She, a white person, said that it’s rampant. They are calling in Burner Privilege. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=7)