# Let's talk about the Dakota Access Pipeline and the Protests **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907 "2016-11-24T18:35:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/161 "2016-12-05T03:32:24Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > So chalk one up for activism and protest working to create awareness and change. If it was already approved this is a political stunt that will get overturned in court just as the Gulf Oil drilling freeze was overturned. ---
**Author:** ![CatandMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@CatandMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatandMouse)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/162 "2016-12-05T04:05:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > **Northern Piper** , thank you for the links. I haven’t had time to go thru them all yet (I am working a gig with long hours), but a friend did show me [this video by JP Sears making the case to support the oil companies](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZJXvoxmR2I). Thank you for posting that link. lol I’m pretty happy about today’s outcome. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/pgHphdkOLc0/maxresdefault.jpg "Standing Rock Celebrates Pres. Obama Denying DAPL Permit") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHphdkOLc0) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/163 "2016-12-05T04:32:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If it was already approved this is a political stunt that will get overturned in court just as the Gulf Oil drilling freeze was overturned. I know. I can’t wait for the days when we are looking out for multi-billion-dollar oil companies again. I’m sure they appreciate all your support for them. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/164 "2016-12-06T04:15:33Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > I know. I can’t wait for the days when we are looking out for multi-billion-dollar oil companies again. > > I’m sure they appreciate all your support for them. > > Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk Considering they don’t have that great a[profit margin](http://www.forbes.com/2011/05/10/oil-company-earnings.html) I’m not sure what your point is. It seems like common sense to make that money in this country and benefit from the taxes instead of sending it overseas to countries that sponsor terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/165 "2016-12-06T15:34:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Considering they don’t have that great a[profit margin](http://www.forbes.com/2011/05/10/oil-company-earnings.html) I’m not sure what your point is. It seems like common sense to make that money in this country and benefit from the taxes instead of sending it overseas to countries that sponsor terrorism. You keep bringing this up like you somehow think that a 6.5% profit margin is _low_. What do you think the average profit margin is for a company? What do you think would be a healthy profit margin for the oil companies to have? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/166 "2016-12-06T15:40:13Z")
Not sure what company’s profit margin is listed as 6.5% (I refuse to click any Forbes link on principle), but if that’s the pipeline company’s profit margin that seems about average. Remember, pipelines along with gas/oil storage companies and gas/oil distribution companies are basically infrastructure/utility companies and don’t generally run high margins, but they generally have pretty stable business. Pipeline capacity is usually sold out by contract long before the pipeline is built (and a pipeline that is under-capacity represents a business mistake by the company that built it), and the pipeline rates are actually Federally regulated. In that industry the big margins generally come from companies doing the resource exploration/extraction, because that’s also where most of the risk is. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/167 "2016-12-07T03:43:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You keep bringing this up like you somehow think that a 6.5% profit margin is _low_. I gave a cite that talked about it. Is there something in the article you’d like to discuss? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/168 "2016-12-07T03:47:17Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Not sure what company’s profit margin is listed as 6.5% (I refuse to click any Forbes link on principle) Aaaaaannnd thanks for participating in the discussion. Since you can’t be bothered to read the article I refuse to read anything else you post on the subject. See how that works. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/169 "2016-12-07T13:49:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I gave a cite that talked about it. Is there something in the article you’d like to discuss? Just that a 6.5% profit margin is pretty nice. Most businesses would be pretty happy with a margin like that. (Especially when it is 6.5% on tens of billions a year.) So, when you do your whining that they _only_ get a 6.5% profit margin, it kinda undercuts your entire line of “argument.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/170 "2016-12-07T15:08:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Aaaaaannnd thanks for participating in the discussion. Since you can’t be bothered to read the article I refuse to read anything else you post on the subject. > > See how that works. I’ve actually edited my Hosts file to not even let me go to [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) links, so it’s out of my hands–but I was talking to the broad thread, not necessarily concerned about individual-level choices about conversation engagement. And as I’ve already said, unless you’re talking production companies, lofty profit margins aren’t a feature of transmission companies generally, they’re much more of a utility play. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/171 "2016-12-07T15:18:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And as I’ve already said, unless you’re talking production companies, lofty profit margins aren’t a feature of transmission companies generally, they’re much more of a utility play. I don’t think this is correct. The rationale for low profit margins at utility companies is that they are extremely low risk. They have monopolies on providing service and their rates are set by the government regulators at levels that ensure profits. None of the above is true of pipeline companies, which are much higher risk and can and have lost money when the industry has a downturn (or if they mess up). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/172 "2016-12-07T16:02:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think this is correct. The rationale for low profit margins at utility companies is that they are extremely low risk. They have monopolies on providing service and their rates are set by the government regulators at levels that ensure profits. > > None of the above is true of pipeline companies, which are much higher risk and can and have lost money when the industry has a downturn (or if they mess up). This isn’t accurate, pipeline rates are actually Federally regulated by FERC: > [@](#): > > The U.S. Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) regulates the rates, terms and conditions that apply for the interstate transportation of petroleum and petroleum products by pipeline. Pursuant to the requirements of the Interstate Commerce Act, FERC ensures that the rates, terms and conditions are “just and reasonable.” > > Consistent with these market dynamics, the FERC allows rates charged by oil pipelines to be set pursuant to several approaches. The oil pipeline rate index is the predominate approach used to set rates. Rates are also commonly set through negotiations and settlements, and by competition (market-based rates). These ratemaking methodologies incent needed investment and operating efficiencies, and protect shipper interests. In the oil pipeline industry, traditional cost-of-service ratemaking is employed in limited circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/173 "2016-12-07T16:03:44Z")
The so-called “protest” portion of this issue will be over soon. It was -16F there last night. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/174 "2016-12-07T16:06:34Z")
Also [Oil & Gas Pipeline](https://biz.yahoo.com/p/sum_qpmd.html) industry averages a 6.1% net margin. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/175 "2016-12-07T16:19:52Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This isn’t accurate, pipeline rates are actually Federally regulated by FERC: “regulated” is not the same thing as “set”. All these rates are negotiable, and in fact have been negotiated downwards of late, due to the downturn in energy prices. Which is in addition to not having a monopoly on delivery, as mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/176 "2016-12-07T18:34:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > 1. The “nuclear” option, and I’m less sure on the legality of this: It’s my understanding ETP already has permits to complete the pipeline, they just need an easement on Federal land overseen by the CoE to do the construction required to complete it. My understanding is that ETP could simply (assuming Trump clears the protesters and secures the site with Federal law enforcement) continue construction of the pipeline. They would be breaking the law the entire time that construction was ongoing, and the cost of this legal violation I believe would be $5,000/day. But there’s discretion in applying that law–my understanding is the actual protester encampment at Standing Rock is technically in violation of the very same law–and the current administration has declined to fine them, so Trump would even have some political cover for doing the same. > > Once the pipeline was actually finished and the construction site cleared, my understanding is they’d no longer be in violation of the law–if I understand correctly the permits to actually build the pipeline are already approved, it’s just that without the easement they can’t legally move their construction equipment and do their construction on the CoE managed land–but if the government just turns an eye and doesn’t levy the fines (basically what they’ve done with the protester’s encampment), then the pipeline gets finished, and importantly the anti-DAPL protesters have almost no legal leg to stand on. They can’t very well sue in Federal court and mandate the government stop something they’re choosing to allow. There are actually lots of uses of Federal land that exceed what is legal (like grazing livestock for example, is often done far beyond what is legally permitted, with no consequence for the vast majority of ranchers), and the government often just turns a blind eye. > > This third option is the one that I know the least about, but I’ve already seen it being bandied about on several environmental sites as something that might be done, and I’ve even heard (unsubstantiated) rumors that the CEO of ETP said he’s prepared to do just this _and pay the $5000/day fine_ if necessary. [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/dakota-access-pipeline-continuing-despite-denied-easement/) seems to be suggesting that this may be a misinterpretation of the ETP statement. Also, the fine appears to actually be $50,000 a day, not $5,000. Though it’s still a lot less than what the company claims to be losing per day. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/177 "2016-12-07T19:26:02Z")
I’d bet money that once the protesters have left and the media has forgotten about this, an easement will be granted and business will continue as usual. What better way to shut up the protesters than to pretend to give them what they want? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/178 "2016-12-07T19:32:00Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > I’d bet money that once the protesters have left and the media has forgotten about this, an easement will be granted and business will continue as usual. What better way to shut up the protesters than to pretend to give them what they want? The protesters seem aware of that and that’s just what they’re expecting. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/179 "2016-12-07T21:19:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Let me give this a shot: > > OIL COMPANIES: We are building this pipeline near your land. Please stand back and observe the wonders of modern engineering. > > LAKOTA NATIVE AMERICANS: Um… we can’t help but notice that this pipeline is going to contain oil someday, and, also, it’s crossing the river upstream from our land. If it breaks, we are just a bit concerned about what will happen to our fresh water. > > OIL COMPANIES: Not to worry, my friends. We have asked the Army Corps of Engineers to assess the dangers. > > ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS: Yup, everything’s fine. > > LAKOTA: Aren’t you the guys that said the levees in New Orleans were just fine? > > ARMY CORPS: (hurt look) > > OIL COMPANIES: Well, it doesn’t matter. We are building the pipeline on easements we got from landowners, and you can’t stop us. > > LAKOTA: Would it be entirely out of line to point out that those people are “landowners” of land that our tribe once owned by treaty with the United States, and then the United States just cancelled the treaty and handed us a new one with less land? > > OIL COMPANIES: That was, like, 100 years ago! And you got some money for it. > > LAKOTA: Yes, money which we cannot even spend, and which is held “in trust” for us by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and for which we can’t even get an accounting, even though we sued them twenty years ago. Is that the money you mean? Because, honestly, it sort of feels like we never really got a fair hearing on losing that land. > > OIL COMPANIES: Not our fault. Ask the Department of Interior. > > DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR: You have reached the Department of Interior. Your call is very important to us. Listen carefully as menu options may have changed. > > LAKOTA: Look, this is all apparently legal, but it feels like we’re getting screwed. Again. > > OIL COMPANIES: Yawn. > > LAKOTA: I believe we shall protest. Who are you and what have you done with bricker? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907/180 "2016-12-07T22:55:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/dakota-access-pipeline-continuing-despite-denied-easement/) seems to be suggesting that this may be a misinterpretation of the ETP statement. Also, the fine appears to actually be $50,000 a day, not $5,000. Though it’s still a lot less than what the company claims to be losing per day. ETP has put $3.7bn into the project so far, so I’d frankly be shocked if they just said “oh well time to go home.” But I’ve also heard on 1/1/2017 if the pipeline isn’t active they lose all their contracts, sadly like a lot of heavily politicized issues now it’s difficult to sift through truth/fiction. And I guess stuff like their contracts with companies who want pipeline capacity are probably not public information. The biggest protections against Trump overreach comes down, I believe, to a traditional restraint in which Presidents don’t give political orders to regulators who are supposed to be apolitical. But as a matter of law I’m not sure there’s not legal stuff Trump could do to just reverse course, because he doesn’t seem too concerned about doing things no other President would do due to fear of it being improper. I also think the biggest x factor is whether Trump cares or not, he has a scattershot mind from what I can tell and if this isn’t something that gets his attention he likely won’t do anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-and-the-protests/772907.md?page=10)