# Let's talk about the GOOD in religion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587 "2012-05-21T08:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/61 "2012-05-21T16:19:32Z")
As long as people civilly state their problems with the “good in religion,” I don’t see why it can’t be lightly debated. However, we do have a debate forum, and if people want to go at it for reals, we’ll have to move the thread there. So, disputing a “good” with a counterargument is OK. Statements which boil down to “religion is stupid and so are you” are not. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/62 "2012-05-21T16:21:33Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Oh, good point. We’ve gotten tons of help - from simply visiting my wife in the hospital, to meals and lawn mowing since she’s been home. On the other hand, any sort of community, religious or not, can provide this. Agreed with **Dangerosa** about how churches are a little more equipped to deal with it. And this is in the south, where church is probably the strongest community you’ll find. But yes, my father also got help from friends, his fellow flotilla members, golf buddies, and many others. It took him having a stroke to realize how many people love him. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/63 "2012-05-21T16:23:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Nitpick: You mean “flak.” “Flak” is anti-aircraft weaponry; metaphorically, it means “criticism.” A “flack” is a publicist or a spokesman. > > Your question seems to imply that the people who are giving flak to religion on these boards aren’t aware of the (purported) good in religion. But we live in a society in which we are constantly bombarded by that message. > > I’m curious about the motivation for the OP. Do you really think that the critics of religion on this board are unaware or ill-informed of the good in religion? Is this witnessing in disguise? > [@MsWhatsit](#): > > If this thread was meant as some kind of “let’s convince the atheists that religion is really wonderful after all!” thing, then I regret my participation. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > More to the point, is this a witnessing thread that doesn’t allow opposing criticism? I’m not sure what forum would allow that. Nope, no witnessing, no proselytizing. In fact, I’ve been happily atheist almost my entire adult life. (“Almost” because of several years as an agnostic.) Motivation for the thread was partly just to see if it could be done - in a crowd that is generally anti-religion, I was curious how well people could hold their noses and discuss the good in something they dislike. Partly it was just because it’s an under-covered topic on these boards, where virtually every topic has been discussed. But mostly it was just out of sheer curiosity of what people would say. I’m certainly not out to change anyone’s mind - as mentioned, I’m quite content with my own atheism, and have no interest in challenging anyone else’s. Why ask that the thread only focus on the good elements of religion? Because the good, the bad, and the ugly of organized religion has been debated in countless other threads, and it’s pretty predictable how that discussion would play out. I purposely did _not_ put this in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/64 "2012-05-21T16:25:09Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m not sure how to respond to this. Are you saying that because all religions claim to offer enlightenment, that none of them do? That would be a pretty ignorant statement, if so. I think he _might_ be saying that since most all religions claim to offer enlightenment, saying that any particular religion is doing good by “enlightening” people doesn’t really mean anything, especially since the term is so loosely defined. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/65 "2012-05-21T16:31:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think he _might_ be saying that since most all religions claim to offer enlightenment, saying that any particular religion is doing good by “enlightening” people doesn’t really mean anything, especially since the term is so loosely defined. Sure, but then one has but to do a tiny amount of research to find out what’s really going on. It’s not like religions go to great lengths to hide what they’re about. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/66 "2012-05-21T16:52:50Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > My parish provides a place for outcasts to come in out of the rain literally and emotionally. People that I see and talk to every Sunday include a bizarre gigantic effeminate black guy wrapped in bright colored sheets so that only his eyes can be seen, a mentally-impaired aged abuse survivor who gets marginal work as a carpenter, sometimes, a guy dying of cancer with no other friends in town . . . they are all welcomed and supported and known and cared about by the parish. They have no other place. Nothing is asked of them, only given. They are a small sample of the people whom my parish serves. Perhaps in a different kind of town there would be a non-church place for them, but not the town I live in. Social opportunities for people who would not have a lot of other opportunities for being social, for whatever reason. Some churches have buses to get senior citizens and other non-drivers to church. That’s giving them opportunities to get out and be social that they wouldn’t have without religion. Many religions encourage people to visit sick people. That keeps housebound sick people from being socially isolated. Social isolation is generally not good for people. Mourning rituals, in religions that have them, give people motivation to get out of the house and be with other people, even when they’ve recently lost a loved one. Jewish mourning ritual in fact has a prayer for the dead that can only be said in a group of 10 adult Jews. This keeps mourners from being socially isolated. Isolating yourself can be a very natural thing to do in a time of mourning, but it’s generally better to get out and have at least some social contact. The ritual of Kaddish makes people do this, even if they don’t want to right now. A church or synagogue can be active in establishing cultural continuity- lessons in the language of your ethnic group, stuff like that. Synagogues provide opportunity and motivation for Jewish kids to learn Hebrew, and education programs for adults to learn about Jewish culture. The Greek Orthodox cathedral near me offers Greek school for kids. They also have an annual food festival where you can get some great Greek food. Pastoral counseling can provide help for people who might not be able or willing to seek out needed help through other routes. When I got married, a lot of the decisions about what to do at the wedding were made for me when I decided to have a Jewish wedding. Same goes for many other life-cycle events. Planning such events can be stressful (especially for less happy life-cycle events like deaths), and those kind of defaults can take away some of the stress. My religion gives me an excuse to not do any chores or errands from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday. I don’t feel like I “really should” be cleaning the house instead of reading and relaxing, because my religion says it is OK to read and relax on Shabbat, and it is not OK to clean the house. There are Jewish groups that are involved with making genetic screening available to Jewish people of child-bearing age, at reduced or no cost to the people getting the screenings. Mr. Neville got a genetic screening through one of these programs. If you’re a carrier for a genetic disease, it’s generally better to know that than it is to not know. Tay-Sachs disease is a lot less common than it once was, and part of the credit should go to Jewish groups that encourage people to get screened for it. It also provides reassurance- I know my baby is extremely unlikely to have Tay-Sachs disease, because neither Mr. Neville nor I are a carrier for it. Insurance companies are more reluctant to screen people for genetic diseases, and they don’t do outreach to encourage more people to get screened (at least none of the insurance companies we’ve been with ever did). They are really reluctant to do such screenings for people who aren’t trying to conceive yet, even though early detection gives you the most options of how to deal with being a carrier. If you only screen people who are trying to conceive for Tay-Sachs, you aren’t giving people the option to not try to have children because they and their spouse are both carriers, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/67 "2012-05-21T16:54:15Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > As long as people civilly state their problems with the “good in religion,” I don’t see why it can’t be lightly debated. However, we do have a debate forum, and if people want to go at it for reals, we’ll have to move the thread there. > > So, disputing a “good” with a counterargument is OK. Statements which boil down to “religion is stupid and so are you” are not. With all due respect, is it possible for people who’d like to debate to simply start a new thread? I just feel that opening the floodgates will throw the thread completely off its intended course, and I’m really curious to hear peoples’ answers to the original question. And no, I’m not “against” debating religion. I’ve read and participated in plenty such debates on these boards. It’s just that that was not the intent of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/68 "2012-05-21T17:01:06Z")
The campaigns to stop human sacrifice in Aztec Mexico and sati in India had religious motivations (possibly among other motivations). Some churches in the US were involved in ending slavery here in the nineteenth century. Churches were involved in the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s in the US. ---
**Author:** ![OldnCrinkly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OldnCrinkly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldnCrinkly)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/69 "2012-05-21T17:17:17Z")
My husband spent four years in a desert refugee camp. It was a VERY BAD PLACE, indeed. He was eventually accepted to come to the U.S. All of the associated costs (paperwork processing, airfare, place to stay once here, etc.) were provided by Catholic Charities. I asked him once, do they try to get you to become Catholic, or love Jesus, or anything like that? He said “Hell no, man! They drive you to the mosque if you want. (He is a Muslim, from a Muslim country.) They help you, whatever you need, whatever they can do, they just help you! They never tell you God and Jesus or whatever!” He was surprised by the question because it was so off base from his experience. They do ask that in the future, if you are able, you pay back the airfare. It is pretty expensive, and they don’t hound you for it, or send it to collection agencies. It helps them to be able to help other people, in other refugee camps, or other VERY BAD PLACES. Seems reasonable and fair to me. They do help a lot of people this way. Also, it was not just for people coming to the U.S., from what I understand, they do all of the paperwork for people trying to go to any country that might accept them. That alone is a huge task. I do not know if they actually handle any resettlement expenses in other countries, though. I’m not sure how anyone could find fault with Catholics for that bit of work. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/70 "2012-05-21T17:18:13Z")
I understand the spirit of your thread, Rodgers01, and I think those who can’t resist snarking are making fools of themselves. Like Acid Lamp, I like the art, music and the bible is interesting to read. (haven’t read it in years, but used to read it all the time, and found it fascinating.) When I think of a child who learns they have inoperable cancer and will die very shortly, I just can’t find a way to convince myself that it is harmful to comfort that child with ideas of a heavenly afterlife. I have always been conflicted about that. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/71 "2012-05-21T17:22:23Z")
Great art and music. That’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/72 "2012-05-21T17:30:52Z")
**OldnCrinkly** , did your husband ever pay them back? ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/73 "2012-05-21T17:41:39Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > With all due respect, is it possible for people who’d like to debate to simply start a new thread? I just feel that opening the floodgates will throw the thread completely off its intended course, and I’m really curious to hear peoples’ answers to the original question. > > And no, I’m not “against” debating religion. I’ve read and participated in plenty such debates on these boards. It’s just that that was not the intent of this thread. IMHO is for debating “less than cosmic topics.” I don’t see how you can open a thread here and not expect debate. Religion is one of THE subjects people debate about. Everyone has an opinion. The answer to the original question is still welcome and encouraged. But I don’t think you get to control what others say when you start a thread in In My Humble Opinion. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/74 "2012-05-21T17:43:12Z")
The “pay it forward” type of thought is often highlighted by many religious people I’ve talked with. IOW, they may feel that since God did them an unrepayable good, they want to share _something_ good with others. It exists outside of religious thought too, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/75 "2012-05-21T17:52:20Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > The “pay it forward” type of thought is often highlighted by many religious people I’ve talked with. > > IOW, they may feel that since God did them an unrepayable good, they want to share _something_ good with others. > > It exists outside of religious thought too, though. Religion provides an ethical framework…it isn’t necessary, individuals develop ethics all on their own. But, as someone who spends a lot of time at work adapting “best practices” and “frameworks” for use inside the company, a starting or comparative framework can add a lot of value. One of the motivations for being Unitarian was to provide the kids with an ethical framework that was bigger than “Mom says.”. A lot of athests I’ve met have no religious faith, but have spent time looking at both religious and secular philosophy as part of their ethical or intellectual journey. ---
**Author:** ![OldnCrinkly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OldnCrinkly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldnCrinkly)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/76 "2012-05-21T18:01:41Z")
**tdn** , yes, and gladly, when he was able to do so. But I also know people who didn’t. One guy told me they used to send him a letter with a bill a couple times a year. I don’t know if he ever paid it back. That particular guy was a jackass in various ways, so it didn’t surprise me. He could afford it. I will say that even he never claimed to have been proseletyzed to. They were resettled in different parts of the country, so it was a whole separate group of people involved. But the help was the same. Yay Catholics! ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/77 "2012-05-21T19:10:21Z")
Tradition; the ceremonies, beliefs, and practices are handed down from generation to generation. Fellowship; you should feel accepted and in sync with others in your religion. You don’t feel alone in the world, you feel like there is a higher (and maybe parent-like?) power. Morals; the basis of a civilized society. Having said all that, I am not religious but I get it. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/78 "2012-05-21T19:15:49Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Tradition; the ceremonies, beliefs, and practices are handed down from generation to generation. And some of them are fun, even. Lots of people have happy childhood memories of Christmas or Passover. Lots of people who aren’t particularly religious still celebrate religious holidays in some way. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/79 "2012-05-21T19:19:24Z")
> [@OldnCrinkly](#): > > **tdn** , yes, and gladly, when he was able to do so. I’m glad to hear that. It’s too bad about the guy who didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/80 "2012-05-21T19:34:24Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > It’s too bad about the guy who didn’t. With any luck, maybe he’ll spend some time in limbo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587.md?page=5)