# Let's talk about the GOOD in religion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587 "2012-05-21T08:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/81 "2012-05-21T19:45:05Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > With any luck, maybe he’ll spend some time in limbo. Can the Pope really enforce that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/82 "2012-05-21T19:46:39Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > The campaigns to stop human sacrifice in Aztec Mexico and sati in India had religious motivations (possibly among other motivations). Some churches in the US were involved in ending slavery here in the nineteenth century. Churches were involved in the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s in the US. This one is a little iffy, considering the rolls religion played on _both_ sides of each example. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/83 "2012-05-21T19:49:28Z")
Music, art and counseling. Yeah, priests do other things as well, but a lot of the services they provide to their community would be called counseling if it was anybody else doing it. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/84 "2012-05-21T19:52:21Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Can the Pope really enforce that? I’m not sure if it’s even an official RC doctrine. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/85 "2012-05-21T20:16:00Z")
Religion can mark people as worthy of damnation. However, it can also expand people’s moral imaginations so that they can conceive of adversaries who are not enemies. Over time, in my humble opinion, the second trait is stronger. The development of a Just War ethic, and conceptions of things like non-combatant immunity, is an example of what I’m talking about and owes a lot to religion. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/86 "2012-05-21T20:39:39Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > - 'Cos I Iz Boss laws. These range widely from the pleasurable to the bothersome to the easily-overcome (laws about female modesty, meet mantillas and mermaid-cut dresses). … produced many pretty things [Verdadera](http://chic-chikilla.blogspot.com/2012/04/las-mantillas-del-jueves-santo.html). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/87 "2012-05-21T21:07:04Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m not sure how to respond to this. Are you saying that because all religions claim to offer enlightenment, that none of them do? That would be a pretty ignorant statement, if so. Not at all. Given that religions all claim to be providing enlightenment, that they contradict each other wildly, and that they have no actual evidence for the reality of their claims that’s a very good indication that none of them have a clue what they are talking about. And it’s a fairly commonly used argument against religion. But my main point was to point out how baseless the claim was that Eastern religions like Buddhism opened the mind while Western religions closed them. To put in perspective, if someone claimed that Buddhism closed minds and Christianity opened them, could you demonstrate that statement to be any more or less valid than the pro-Buddhism one? ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/88 "2012-05-21T22:46:39Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Take it to another arena for a second. Suppose someone posts a thread about a major political figure and some legislation they support. If all that happens is that the people who align with that person’s party say “this is great news!” and everyone who aligns with the opposite party says “this is horrible news!” then nothing good comes out of it and there will continue to be an impass. If instead, those who support it can enumerate why they support it and those who oppose it make a real effort to understand why those people think those reasons are good, they may not agree with eachother, but at least they can disagree with eachother from informed positions. I guess the difference for me is I havent already had tons and tons and tons of situations where I was expected to sit there and understand a major current political figure without criticising. The idea that anyone disagreeing with religion doing it from an uninformed position in most of our societies, let alone because they havent ‘made a real effort’ to understand the other perspective is one I find quite baffling. You generally have to actively resist being put in positions where you’re being asked to sit down and ‘give it a fair chance’ on a regular basis, even as an adult. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/89 "2012-05-21T23:48:48Z")
Well, there would be very few horror movies. And if you like the violent films, Passion Of the Christ is considered THE MOST violent film in history. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/90 "2012-05-22T00:18:03Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Well, there would be very few horror movies. > > And if you like the violent films, Passion Of the Christ is considered THE MOST violent film in history. Wow, never thought about how horror genre often plays off religious themes. An interesting “good” that shows the cultural literacy aspect of religion. Speaking of literacy, religious institutions have at times had policies that promoted literacy. Religious desires have also motivated individuals to learn to read so they could peruse sacred texts for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/91 "2012-05-22T07:21:09Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How about, “Religion provides structure for peoples’ lives”.😉 So does a prison cell. So does… pretty much every social institution in existence. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/92 "2012-05-22T13:25:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not at all. Given that religions all claim to be providing enlightenment, that they contradict each other wildly, and that they have no actual evidence for the reality of their claims that’s a very good indication that none of them have a clue what they are talking about. And it’s a fairly commonly used argument against religion. > > But my main point was to point out how baseless the claim was that Eastern religions like Buddhism opened the mind while Western religions closed them. To put in perspective, if someone claimed that Buddhism closed minds and Christianity opened them, could you demonstrate that statement to be any more or less valid than the pro-Buddhism one? I’ve read this eight times and I still have no idea what it means. When you say “Not at all”, do you mean that some religions offer more enlightenment than others, or that it’s ignorant to say that none do. Let me ask you this: Do you believe that enlightenment is possible? That’s a simple yes or no question. And to answer your question about Buddhism closing minds an Christianity opening them, that couldn’t have come at a better time. A close friend told her born-again sister about what I’m doing with my life. The sister accused me (not to my face) of being a Satan-worshipper. Coming from someone like that, I’m more assured that I’m on the right path. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/93 "2012-05-22T13:37:24Z")
You tell us what ‘enlightenment’ is, and we’ll tell you if we think it’s possible. If you think it means, “coming to a new understanding”, then yes, it is possible. That’s not to say the understanding is correct, however. If you think it means, “coming to a more correct understanding”, then yes, it is also possible. That’s not to say that religion, eastern or western, leads to such an outcome, or even makes it more likely. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/94 "2012-05-22T13:57:07Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > You tell us what ‘enlightenment’ is, and we’ll tell you if we think it’s possible. > > If you think it means, “coming to a new understanding”, then yes, it is possible. That’s not to say the understanding is correct, however. > > If you think it means, “coming to a more correct understanding”, then yes, it is also possible. That’s not to say that religion, eastern or western, leads to such an outcome, or even makes it more likely. Oh boy, we’re not really going to play this game, are we? OK, my definition of enlightenment: Coming to a fuller understanding of yourself, finding sustainable happiness, and being at peace and stillness. Most religions have been seeking this for thousands of years. Is it your assertion that not even one of them has gotten even a single thing right about it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/95 "2012-05-22T14:08:21Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’ve read this eight times and I still have no idea what it means. When you say “Not at all”, do you mean that some religions offer more enlightenment than others, or that it’s ignorant to say that none do. I was saying “not at all” to your claim that it’s ignorant to say that the fact that the various religions all offer various contradictory claims of enlightenment is evidence that none do. It is evidence that no religion offers enlightenment; quite good evidence. > [@tdn](#): > > Let me ask you this: Do you believe that enlightenment is possible? That’s a simple yes or no question. Certainly; through science and reason, most prominently. We’re certainly more enlightened than the people of the past; but not because of religion. Religion is intellectually sterile at best because it is based on falsehoods; it is unlikely to enlighten anyone since it lacks the basis in reality needed to do so except by sheer luck. > [@tdn](#): > > OK, my definition of enlightenment: Coming to a fuller understanding of yourself, finding sustainable happiness, and being at peace and stillness. > > Most religions have been seeking this for thousands of years. Is it your assertion that not even one of them has gotten even a single thing right about it? Happiness and “stillness” has nothing to do with enlightenment. Religion clouds the understanding of oneself and others, it doesn’t help it. And only a subset of religion values any of those things. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/96 "2012-05-22T14:31:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I was saying “not at all” to your claim that it’s ignorant to say that the fact that the various religions all offer various contradictory claims of enlightenment is evidence that none do. It is evidence that no religion offers enlightenment; quite good evidence. Your logic here is faulty. Barack Obama claims to be the POTUS. Carrot Top claims to be the POTUS. They contradict each other. Does that mean that both are false? > [@](#): > > Certainly; through science and reason, most prominently. We’re certainly more enlightened than the people of the past; but not because of religion. Religion is intellectually sterile at best because it is based on falsehoods; it is unlikely to enlighten anyone since it lacks the basis in reality needed to do so except by sheer luck. Please enumerate the falsehoods of Buddhism. Where does it lack a basis in reality? For that matter, what is the falsehood in “Thou shalt not steal”? > [@](#): > > Happiness and “stillness” has nothing to do with enlightenment. Religion clouds the understanding of oneself and others, it doesn’t help it. And only a subset of religion values any of those things. I guess we have different meanings of enlightenment. I much prefer mine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/97 "2012-05-22T14:42:32Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Your logic here is faulty. Barack Obama claims to be the POTUS. Carrot Top claims to be the POTUS. They contradict each other. Does that mean that both are false? There is tons of evidence that Obama is the Prez. Can you provide solid evidence that any one religion is more enlightening than the others? If not, your analogy is extremely faulty. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/98 "2012-05-22T14:54:39Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Your logic here is faulty. Barack Obama claims to be the POTUS. Carrot Top claims to be the POTUS. They contradict each other. Does that mean that both are false? That analogy doesn’t work because there’s plenty of evidence besides what they say as to who is President. With religion on the other hand, there’s no evidence at all beyond their unsupported word as to which religion is the “true way” and which is false. If I claim to be the one true god there’s just as much evidence for that as for any other religion. > [@tdn](#): > > Please enumerate the falsehoods of Buddhism. Where does it lack a basis in reality? In all of the supernatural claims it makes. > [@tdn](#): > > For that matter, what is the falsehood in “Thou shalt not steal”? That’s not a religious claim of fact, that’s a common social rule. > [@tdn](#): > > I guess we have different meanings of enlightenment. I much prefer mine. Obviously you don’t, or you’d be sitting in a corner somewhere out of your mind on heroin or something similar. Your definition of “enlightened” sounds an awful lot like “high on opiates”. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/99 "2012-05-22T14:54:47Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Your logic here is faulty. Barack Obama claims to be the POTUS. Carrot Top claims to be the POTUS. They contradict each other. Does that mean that both are false? Carrot Top also claims to be a comedian, which is absurd, and should lead you to pay less attention to any other claim he puts forth. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/100 "2012-05-22T14:55:29Z")
My analogy is quite apt. **Der Trihs** ’s claim is that when things contradict each other, then none can be true. That’s clearly a false claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587.md?page=6)