# Let's talk about the GOOD in religion **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587 "2012-05-21T08:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/101 "2012-05-22T14:56:06Z")
Although I’m not religious, the studies clearly show that religious people are happier, healthier, they live longer, they are less likely to become addicted to alcohol and drugs, they have better marriages, they are more charitable (even for non-religious charities like blood donation), they recover better from hardships, they commit less crime, they are more sociable, they are less likely to cheat on their spouse, and they have better self-control. These represent huge, huge benefits for society. ---
**Author:** ![VernWinterbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c67d28/32.png) [@VernWinterbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VernWinterbottom)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/102 "2012-05-22T14:57:16Z")
What I picked up from a college sociology/anthropology course years ago is this: Religions evolve to help keep a particular group or society functioning in a productive and orderly manner in its particular time and place. This may benefit the society as a whole or the governing class of the society or both. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/103 "2012-05-22T15:00:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That analogy doesn’t work because there’s plenty of evidence besides what they say as to who is President. With religion on the other hand, there’s no evidence at all beyond their unsupported word as to which religion is the “true way” and which is false. If I claim to be the one true god there’s just as much evidence for that as for any other religion. Great, except that you don’t look for evidence. You dismiss it all out of hand and call it bullshit. > [@](#): > > In all of the supernatural claims it makes. I’m not quite sure what supernatural claims it makes. But how about the daily, down to earth practices that it espouses. You do know that it has a bunch of them, right? > [@](#): > > That’s not a religious claim of fact, that’s a common social rule. So? It’s a good rule. > [@](#): > > Obviously you don’t, or you’d be sitting in a corner somewhere out of your mind on heroin or something similar. Your definition of “enlightened” sounds an awful lot like “high on opiates”. Really? The only way to be happy is through drugs? Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/104 "2012-05-22T15:06:29Z")
You’re not sure what supernatural claims religion makes? Really? Most of them claim that there is a deity, or multiple deities. Many claim that prayer has the power to effect real and measurable change in the world. The one I was personally raised in claims that miracles are real. I don’t think this should be surprising or revelatory to anyone posting here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/105 "2012-05-22T15:06:51Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > My analogy is quite apt. **Der Trihs** ’s claim is that when things contradict each other, then none can be true. That’s clearly a false claim. And it isn’t what I said. Again; religions contradict each other, and _there’s nothing but their unsupported word as to which if any is true_. You conveniently left out the second part. Nor did I say that none can be true because of that, just that it’s strong evidence that none of them is true. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/106 "2012-05-22T15:11:31Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > You’re not sure what supernatural claims religion makes? Really? I’m quite well aware of the supernatural claims that “religion” makes. I was addressing the practices of Buddhism directly. Please stay on-topic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/107 "2012-05-22T15:13:24Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Great, except that you don’t look for evidence. You dismiss it all out of hand and call it bullshit. Because in all of history, there’s never been any such evidence. Which is why you are condemning me for “dismissing it out of hand” and not simply whipping that evidence out and winning the argument, not just with me but with all other rival religions. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/108 "2012-05-22T15:14:03Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m quite well aware of the supernatural claims that “religion” makes. I was addressing the practices of Buddhism directly. Please stay on-topic. Oh, on-topic. OK, one of the local churches sponsors a Christmas bazaar every year and it’s a great place to get inexpensive handmade crafts and tree ornaments and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/109 "2012-05-22T15:18:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And it isn’t what I said. Again; religions contradict each other, and _there’s nothing but their unsupported word as to which if any is true_. You conveniently left out the second part. Nor did I say that none can be true because of that, just that it’s strong evidence that none of them is true. Yes, that is what you said. As to which one is true, that’s up to individuals to decide. As for evidence, you’ll have to take peoples’ word for it. I know that’s not enough for you, but that’s not my problem. Instead of looking at how religions all contradict each other, how about looking at what they have in common? They all say that stealing is bad. They all say that murder is bad. Are they wrong? According to you, they are. Oh, but those are just common sense rules of society. Sure, but they are also the major cornerstones of every major religion. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/110 "2012-05-22T15:20:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because in all of history, there’s never been any such evidence. Which is why you are condemning me for “dismissing it out of hand” and not simply whipping that evidence out and winning the argument, not just with me but with all other rival religions. As for evidence, read this thread. Plenty of people have come up with plenty of things. And do you really think that I’m trying to win an argument with all rival religions? Where did you get that from? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/111 "2012-05-22T15:25:01Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Although I’m not religious, the studies clearly show that religious people are happier, healthier, they live longer, they are less likely to become addicted to alcohol and drugs, they have better marriages, they are more charitable (even for non-religious charities like blood donation), they recover better from hardships, they commit less crime, they are more sociable, they are less likely to cheat on their spouse, and they have better self-control. > > These represent huge, huge benefits for society. Except [most of that isn’t true](http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/religious-belief-and-societal-health/). On the contrary, religion is correlated with all sorts of social dysfunction, and religious people tend to be less ethical than unbelievers. > [@tdn](#): > > As to which one is true, that’s up to individuals to decide. No it isn’t. Reality is what it is; a religions that is wrong is wrong regardless of whether or not someone insists that it is right. > [@tdn](#): > > As for evidence, you’ll have to take peoples’ word for it. I know that’s not enough for you, but that’s not my problem. It’s your problem because it means your particular religion has no more basis than the rantings of some random homeless guy on a street corner. His word has just as much evidence going for it as that of any believer. And since religions contradict each other, the overwhelming majority of religions must be false, which means the overwhelming majority of those people’s “word” is worthless. > [@tdn](#): > > Instead of looking at how religions all contradict each other, how about looking at what they have in common? They all say that stealing is bad. They all say that murder is bad. Are they wrong? That’s just a matter of stealing common secular principles and pretending they are religious. Nor do all religions say that stealing is wrong or that murder is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/112 "2012-05-22T15:26:26Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > As for evidence, read this thread. Plenty of people have come up with plenty of things. Nonsense. No one has produced any evidence for the truth of any religion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/113 "2012-05-22T15:26:35Z")
The local Episcopal church uses a large portion of offerings/contributions to run the only food pantry in the area, serving hundreds of families each month. They also run a 2nd hand store and give the profits from _that_ to the food pantry. Both the pantry and the store are run entirely by volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/114 "2012-05-22T15:31:55Z")
**Rodgers01** , I apologize for helping to turn this thread into what you fervently hoped it wouldn’t. And I’m going to stop arguing with **Der Trihs**. I should have known better. Namaste. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/115 "2012-05-22T15:39:11Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > …religious people tend to be less ethical than unbelievers. Cite? And no, your cite does not prove this. What you would need to show (if this allegation were true) is a cite that compensates for cultural differences by showing that religious people within a given culture are less ethical than non-religious. As to the OP - > [@](#): > > People who attend religious services weekly or more are happier (43% very happy) than those who attend monthly or less (31%); or seldom or never (26%). This correlation between happiness and frequency of church attendance has been a consistent finding in the General Social Surveys taken over the years. [Cite](http://www.millennialstar.org/happiness-statistics/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/116 "2012-05-22T15:42:39Z")
I’m not really sure what purpose it serves to do a study showing that believers or nonbelievers are more ethical or charitable or happy than the other group, honestly. Does anyone see a study like that and think, “Oh wow, the atheists are happier! I’m going to do that now instead.” Or vice versa? I mean, I guess it’s a defense against “Atheists/religious people are dicks,” but personally I don’t need a study to tell me that some atheists and religious people are dicks, and some aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/117 "2012-05-22T15:42:51Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > You’re not sure what supernatural claims religion makes? Really? > > Most of them claim that there is a deity, or multiple deities. Many claim that prayer has the power to effect real and measurable change in the world. The one I was personally raised in claims that miracles are real. > > I don’t think this should be surprising or revelatory to anyone posting here. But those claims are not, as you say yourself, universal. And if we are going to have a thread in general about the good religion does, we have to consider that religions vary a lot from the Westboro Baptist Church. This is not a conversation about what this religion espouses, or what that one believes, or which one is right…this is a conversation about the benefits given to society or individuals by religion in general. Which one is right, if any, is irrelevant to the conversation, just like which sport is more fun to play is irrelevant in a conversation on what benefits participating in sports provides. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/118 "2012-05-22T16:19:56Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I’m not really sure what purpose it serves to do a study showing that believers or nonbelievers are more ethical or charitable or happy than the other group, honestly. Does anyone see a study like that and think, “Oh wow, the atheists are happier! I’m going to do that now instead.” Or vice versa? > > I mean, I guess it’s a defense against “Atheists/religious people are dicks,” but personally I don’t need a study to tell me that some atheists and religious people are dicks, and some aren’t. Correlation is not causation…but it does imply causation in one direction or the other. The question then becomes, are you more likely to be charitable if you are religious or more likely to be religious if you are charitable. If its the second, then religion isnt doing any good…if its the first, and say you decide that one of the values you want to pass along to your children is charity, belonging to a church may help cement that value. I see this a lot because I’m a Unitarian Sunday school teacher. And that is a huge driver for our growing church membership, people who are unchurched, and who aren’t really looking for dogma (or they’d join a more mainstream religion) wanting to cement a set of values for their children. As adults, our values are fairly set, and when UUs get adult converts without families it’s often for community, not for values..they find us because their values already agree with ours. Few join a UU church for the dogma. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/119 "2012-05-22T16:19:58Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > **Rodgers01** , I apologize for helping to turn this thread into what you fervently hoped it wouldn’t. > > And I’m going to stop arguing with **Der Trihs**. I should have known better. > > Namaste. **tdn** , thanks, and no worries. I should have posted this in MPSIMS in the first place - that might have helped it stay on track. Namaste indeed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587/120 "2012-05-22T16:28:32Z")
Religion IMHO, is the anti-ego. Your ego is your mind’s defense mechanism: it dosen’t want to be happy or good, it wants to be _right_…it wants to _win._ The ego props you up and finds fault in others. Religion provides a framework to force you to find fault in yourself and find worth on others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-good-in-religion/622587.md?page=7)