# Let's talk about the old order Amish--various questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 4, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590 "2021-06-04T03:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/21 "2021-06-04T17:55:54Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > And this is why it’s so darn hard to explain the Amish lifestyle. What’s frowned upon in one community might be accepted in a community in the next county. When I was a kid (1970s), my parents had some friends who moved to Lancaster. We visited them there once, and, not surprisingly, saw a lot of Amish and Mennonites in the area. My parents’ friends told us about a local Amish group which was referred to (by the non-Amish) as “black-bumper Amish” – unlike some of the more traditional Amish communities, they were willing to own and drive cars, but the cars had to be “plain,” with no fancy ornamentation, and this included covering up the shiny chrome bumpers and trim with black paint. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/22 "2021-06-04T17:58:52Z")
I’m curious about if they’re exempt from serving in the military, do they pay income tax, collect social security, utilize state agencies for welfare etc. What about insurance, Property, health or dental? How much can they depend on the community after a disaster like fire, or tornadoes? Do they vote? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/23 "2021-06-04T18:01:46Z")
From the tour: They do pay income tax. They are exempt by statute from paying social security tax, except if they work for a non-Amish employer. However, they typically refuse to collect any benefits. They do not believe in life insurance, but will purchase liability insurance. (I guess this is another thing I question the consistency of) If a member of the community dies or is very ill, the rest all pitch in to help. As far as the military, they are pacifists so would probably get a conscientious objector status in the event of a draft. I’m not sure about voting. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/24 "2021-06-04T18:08:00Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > But farther down the road there’s another group that use tractors to farm, but the tractors must have steel wheels. Yeah, they seem to have an aversion to rubber tires and require steel or iron wheels. At least in Lancaster County, they are permitted to use tractors (with metal wheels) around the barn or near silos, but when plowing the fields, it must be done by horse or mule. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/25 "2021-06-04T18:29:50Z")
There is a sort of consistency to it - but it’s not a consistency that’s immediately obvious to non-Amish. For example, the steel wheels are apparently to prevent/discourage using a tractor on roads for personal transportation. As far as insurance goes, they generally have an objection to insurance that would benefit themselves such as health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance - from what I understand , they see it as not trusting God/their community\* to take care of them and therefore would never file a claim , an objection that wouldn’t apply to liability insurance, where someone else would be receiving the benefit. - Although many communities do have a formal mutual aid plan, which could be seen as a form of insurance - but that would still be the community providing for its members without any outsiders involved. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/26 "2021-06-04T18:30:16Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > They do not believe in life insurance, but will purchase liability insurance. Just spit-balling, obviously - Life insurance is out because it is God’s plan how long you live and the payout doesn’t go to the community but a person. Liability is OK because it is protective of the community - if someone gets sued and loses everything, then the community will need to step up to help them. So the insurance actually benefits everyone. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/27 "2021-06-04T18:45:06Z")
> [@chela](#): > > I’m curious about if they’re exempt from serving in the military, The U.S. hasn’t had compulsory military service since 1973. When the draft was in effect, no community was exempted. However, individuals could claim conscientious objector status. How such objectors were treated in practice [varied in different wars and periods of U.S. history.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscientious_objection_in_the_United_States#American_Revolutionary_War) They’d still be subject to Selective Service registration requirements, but those are rarely enforced for anyone, and Amish have such limited interactions with the “English” government, I’d be surprised if it ever even came up. > [@chela](#): > > do they pay income tax _Everyone_ in the U.S. pays income tax, as long as they have taxable income above a certain level. There are _no_ religious exemptions, at least at the Federal level. I think some states with income taxes actually do exempt some clergy, but I doubt simply being Amish exempts them. > [@UltraVires](#): > > They do not believe in life insurance, but will purchase liability insurance. (I guess this is another thing I question the consistency of) Life insurance is not a legal mandate. Various forms of liability insurance often are. And beyond that, life insurance is for the family, and the Amish community is supposed to take care of Amish families, not “English” corporations. Liability insurance, on the other hand, would potentially pay out to “English” they interact with. I don’t see anything inconsistent with taking out liability policies but not life insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/28 "2021-06-04T18:47:31Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Life insurance is out because […] the payout doesn’t go to the community but a person. I understand the religious objection, not this one. It would be simple to assign the benefit to a community fund. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/29 "2021-06-04T18:52:17Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > For example, the steel wheels are apparently to prevent/discourage using a tractor on roads for personal transportation I have seen, however, some Amish using tractors to pull a cart to the nearest grain elevator to sell or store the wheat. In those cases, they put a rubber tire over the steel wheel, so as not to damage the roadway. It’s just the tire, so there’s no inner tube filled with compressed air. Go figure! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/30 "2021-06-04T18:53:27Z")
If you look at the Amish lifestyle as a set of hard and fast rules you may see inconsistency, but instead consider that they work from general principles based on their belief in community. A lot of their lifestyle is based on tradition as well, but they do progress over time. Their belief in community over individualism may be very difficult for some people to understand. Something like avoiding rubber tires on tractors may seem odd, but they cannot make their own rubber tires and would need more connections to an individualistic outside world with very different beliefs if they were to use them more. So from their point of view rubber tires would need to have greater benefits than the potential effect on the community from further entanglement with the outside world. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/31 "2021-06-04T18:53:42Z")
I grew up in a heavily Mennonite area. For those who might not know, Mennonites are sort of “Amish lite”: not as restrictive, but still pretty much so by English standards. For example, many Mennonites use buggies; others will drive cars, but with the chrome painted black, because chrome is prideful. This all reminds me of the conservative Jewish rules about Sabbath stuff, like the elevators that operate like paternosters and the stoves that have “Sabbath mode”: it’s either careful compromise or a complete shuck, depending on your perspective. My favorite example: a buddy played hockey on Sunday mornings, and so we’d often go to a game, driving by the Mennonite church, which was in session. Their parking lot would be about half full of buggies and half of cars with the chrome painted black. Including a 1970 Buick Skylark GS. That’s a classic muscle car, complete with hood scoop and a 400ci big-block engine. But hey, the chrome was painted black, so it was OK, right? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/32 "2021-06-04T18:59:47Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > There is a sort of consistency to it - but it’s not a consistency that’s immediately obvious to non-Amish. I can agree with this. If I turn my head sideways and close one eye, I can _sorta_ see what they are getting at. Another thing is banking. They use “English” banks. If I was in charge of an insular community that wanted to minimize contact with outsiders, then very last thing I would do is allow them to handle my money. Especially in modern times with mortgages stripped down and sold in bunches to investors and with the Federal Reserve monkeying with the system. I would expect that an fellow Amish would run a bank for the community with more traditional banking policies. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/33 "2021-06-04T19:11:03Z")
> [@phs3](#): > > I grew up in a heavily Mennonite area. For those who might not know, Mennonites are sort of “Amish lite”: not as restrictive, but still pretty much so by English standards. > > For example, many Mennonites use buggies; others will drive cars, but with the chrome painted black, because chrome is prideful. Having also grown up in a Mennonite area, I am curious as to which Mennonite use buggies. The only buggy-drivers in central Kansas are Amish. There are some Mennonites who drive very plain cars (with no radios, of course), but no Mennonites in this area drive buggies. Where did you grow up, and do you know the name of the Mennonite ‘sect’ that uses buggies? ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/34 "2021-06-04T19:31:39Z")
Let me note that “rumspringa” appears to be their pronunciation of herumspringen (to jump around). Yes, the aversion to electricity, which applies to their homes not their businesses, seems to be to prevent cultural pollution from the outside world. I read about one family that had a child with some illness, I forget what it was, for which a specific treatment was bathing in blue light for several hours a day and the family joined the electricity grid for that specific purpose. I once taught calculus to an Amish. He had obviously finished HS. There was a constant fight with PA authorities over schooling. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/35 "2021-06-04T19:34:10Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Where did you grow up, and do you know the name of the Mennonite ‘sect’ that uses buggies? Southern Ontario; this article: > **[10 things to know about Mennonites in Canada](https://canadianmennonite.org/stories/10-things-know-about-mennonites-canada)** > > You may have seen traditionally dressed Mennonites at farmers’ markets or on TV, but you may not know that these are only a segment of the Mennonite population in Canada. There are several varieties of Mennonite and Amish groups in Canada,... talks about it some. Specifically, these were Old Order Mennonites: > **[The Old Order Mennonite Village Minutes Away From Ontarios Tech Capital](https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/canada/articles/the-old-order-mennonite-village-minutes-away-from-ontarios-tech-capital)** > > For a fascinating day trip or weekend away in Ontario visit the picturesque Old Order Mennonite town of St. Jacobs Country! (and yes, the rink was in St. Jacobs!) I also went to school with Mennonites, some of whom wore bonnets and the like, others of whom did not. So it was a continuum. ---
**Author:** ![Reeses\_Monkey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reeses_monkey/32/2885_2.png) [@Reeses\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeses_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/36 "2021-06-04T20:30:24Z")
My eighth grade science teacher once told us about the “Black Bumper Mennonites.” He said that they covered all of the shiny parts of their cars with black paint and, as a result, they didn’t have to pay to get on the PA Turnpike! We were all amazed by this bit of information, until he dropped the bomb: They pay to get off it, like everyone else does. Very funny, Mr Kemp. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/37 "2021-06-04T20:56:58Z")
Probably a bit forward, but are Amish married couples permitted to engage in oral or anal sex? ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/38 "2021-06-04T21:14:32Z")
I would assume yes - I doubt they have the Catholic stricture of sex with openness to procreation. One of my favorite jokes: A Baptist couple went to their minister for counseling on sex. They asked about oral, anal, doggy style, bondage, clamps - the minister said sure, anything consensual - sexual pleasure is a gift from God. “What about standing up?” “Nope, could lead to dancing.” ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/39 "2021-06-04T21:24:46Z")
> [@phs3](#): > > I grew up in a heavily Mennonite area. Having grown up in NJ, I’d spent time in Lancaster & Bucks counties PA which seems to be (along with Ohio) the Amish center of gravity. Later, I lived in Great Falls, MT, and there were Mennonite colonies around Montana, that would come into Great Falls for various things. I realize this is a side question, but what’s the fundamental difference? Is it a scripture thing? Did the Mennonites split off from the Amish at some point? Tripler I have seen Mennonite communities here in NM. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/40 "2021-06-04T21:28:04Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > I realize this is a side question, but what’s the fundamental difference? Is it a scripture thing? Did the Mennonites split off from the Amish at some point? As the site below describes, it was the opposite – the Amish split off from the Mennonites in the 17th Century because they felt that the Mennonites were becoming too liberal. Both groups are part of the Anabaptist movement. > **[Mennonite vs Amish: What’s the Difference? - Amish America](https://amishamerica.com/whats-the-difference-between-amish-and-mennonites/)** > > Amish and Mennonites share many things in common. But the question of how they differ is more complicated than it might look. That's because the Amish are a diverse group. And so are the churches that fall under the "Mennonite" label. Amish &... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590.md?page=3)