# Let's talk about the old order Amish--various questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 4, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590 "2021-06-04T03:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/41 "2021-06-04T22:22:17Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > However, they typically refuse to collect any benefits. They do not believe in life insurance, but will purchase liability insurance. (I guess this is another thing I question the consistency of) Insurance is mixed up with God’s will and not questioning God’s will. So, if I had to guess, I’d say they don’t like life insurance because it’s seen as betting against God’s will if a person will live or die, but liability insures against human mistakes. At least around here, they don’t go for medical insurance. However, the community will raise funds to pay for medical care. They’ve been known to do things like pay cash for a kidney transplant or other advanced and high-tech care, so in a sense they have a sort of community-based insurance in that the community will take care of their own. > [@UltraVires](#): > > As far as the military, they are pacifists so would probably get a conscientious objector status in the event of a draft. They do now. In the past a number of Amish went to jail rather than violate their beliefs regarding war-time service ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/42 "2021-06-04T22:42:59Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > The Amish only go to school through the eighth grade. After that they go to work on the family farm or apprentice to learn one of the trades that the Amish are allowed to have. However, my question is may an Amish child continue onto high school, college, or a graduate degree and still be a member in good standing in the community? The Amish have no issue with going to outside doctors for their medical needs or outside lawyers for their legal needs. Wouldn’t it be more in keeping with an insular community to have Amish doctors and lawyers? The big issue with the Amish and education is that they have a concern about too much exposure to the outside world with continuing education, along with an assumption that you should only spend time on schooling that is practical and that you will use. The “school through 8th grade” was a compromise worked out via a Supreme Court ruling [(Wisconsin v. Yoder).](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Yoder) I once read an account of two Amish sisters who were working as midwives and went for additional/advanced training in relation to that, above and beyond the standard schooling, with the approval the community. But I think in that case the additional training was seen as practical/vocational training for a service that would benefit the community, rather than being a profession to benefit the individual. So… additional schooling is possible but unlikely. For needs like medicine, legal affairs, and so forth no Amish within the community is ever likely to pursue such an education, so when they need those services they purchase them from outsiders, just as they purchase other things they need from outsiders. Could someone Amish pursue education to become, say, a CPA for the community? Hmm… the person would have to justify that somehow. Perhaps someone disabled and unable to perform many other tasks? Still seems unlikely. > [@UltraVires](#): > > If I went through the complicated and convoluted process to convert to old order Amish, would they say, “Hey, this is wonderful. We can use you as our lawyer!” or would I be standing behind a plow and a mule in the fields? Interesting question. They do, on rare occasion, accept converts. Even more rarely, the converts stay with them. It’s not so much complicated and convoluted as difficult due to cultural gulf between Amish and English (that is, non-Amish). There are roles other than farmer for the Amish, but they don’t seem to have much need for lawyers. If you did make a real and sincere conversion they might, on rare occasion, value your legal knowledge but you’d probably have to make a living via some other trade. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/43 "2021-06-05T03:32:55Z")
> [@phs3](#): > > Specifically, these were Old Order Mennonites: Yep, that’s what I would have guessed. Not a whole lot of difference between Old Order Mennonites and Amish. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/44 "2021-06-05T05:53:43Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > In the past a number of Amish went to jail rather than violate their beliefs regarding war-time service Up until the end of World War I, conscientious objectors were sent to jail. This included Hutterites, who are religiously similar to the Amish and Mennonites. Two Hutterites were treated so badly in jail during World War I that they died from it. Since World War II conscientious objector service has been standardized. There were about 12,000 of them in World War II. Incidentally, in World War II a conscientious objector name Desmond Doss (who was a Seventh-day Adventist) was awarded a Medal of Honor for his work as a combat medic. You can learn in the movie _Hacksaw Ridge_ (which was directed by Mel Gibson) about how he saved something like 75 solders in one night. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/45 "2021-06-05T06:04:14Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Also incidentally, the state with the most Amish people is Ohio, not Pennsylvania. Hmm, this chart says that sometime between 2000 and 2010, Pennsylvania edged out Ohio as having the most Amish: > **[List of U.S. states by Amish population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Amish_population)** > > There were 32 states of the United States with an Amish population in 2022 that consists of at least one Amish settlement of Old or New Order Amish, excluding more modern Amish groups like e.g. the Beachy Amish. New Order Amish are seen as part of the Old Order Amish despite the name by most scholars. > The Amish have settled in as many as 32 US-states though about 2/3 are located in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana. The largest Amish settlement is Lancaster County, Pennsylvania and adjacent count... I’ve seen Amish/Mennonites/Hutterites in airports: > **[Plain on the Plane - Do the Amish Travel By Airplane?](https://www.amish365.com/plain-on-the-plane-do-the-amish-travel-by-airplanes/)** > > Do the Amish travel by airplane? There's no buggy parking at the terminal, so it is a bit of a hassle, but check out the answer ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/46 "2021-06-05T08:59:20Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Incidentally, in World War II a conscientious objector name Desmond Doss (who was a Seventh-day Adventist) was awarded a Medal of Honor for his work as a combat medic. You can learn in the movie _Hacksaw Ridge_ (which was directed by Mel Gibson) about how he saved something like 75 solders in one night. If I recall, one of the problems the Amish had with conscientious objector “alternative service” is that they did not find the role of combat medic to be an acceptable alternative. Or rather, some Amish felt that way as there is not a unanimous consensus on this. They refused to be any part of the military, even in a non-fighting role, and some of them went to jail during WWII and Korea rather than take part in the military in even the most peripheral role. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/47 "2021-06-05T13:55:49Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Let me note that “rumspringa” appears to be their pronunciation of herumspringen (to jump around). Although it appears that “rumspringa” is a noun, not the infinitive of a verb. I’m not sure what it would be in Standard German. Herumspring? Herumsprung? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/48 "2021-06-05T14:00:42Z")
The tour guide said that the old order Amish were forbidden to drive a car and forbidden to own a car, but they were permitted to ride in cars. In fact, she said, many Amish in Lancaster County hire people to drive them and their goods to Philadelphia for farmers’ markets and craft shows. She said that the local bishop, however, forbade any travel on airplanes. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/49 "2021-06-05T14:06:22Z")
Some Amish are allowed to fly in certain circumstances and some aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/50 "2021-06-05T14:14:43Z")
I’m just going on what she said applied in Lancaster County. But as an outsider that seems odd. I cannot own or drive a car, but can hire a guy to drive me around. It just seems to me that if car travel is bad, then I should not ride in one. If it is okay to ride in one (but not own one since I might drive excessively) then why does the bishop require me to incur an extra expense of hiring a driver? Why can’t I rent one and just drive the thing? I would also assume that if I had a successful farm that it would not be permitted to hire a personal driver every day. Maybe it is just an outside opinion and maybe I am just rules lawyering, but surely an Amish person gets frustrated about having to ride a buggy into town at 13 miles per hour when he just watched his neighbor whisked away to Philly in a car and questions the rationale for these conflicting rules. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/51 "2021-06-05T14:36:26Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > But as an outsider that seems odd. I cannot own or drive a car, but can hire a guy to drive me around. It just seems to me that if car travel is bad, then I should not ride in one. If it is okay to ride in one (but not own one since I might drive excessively) then why does the bishop require me to incur an extra expense of hiring a driver? Why can’t I rent one and just drive the thing? Back when I still worked in the Chicago Loop there were a group of Amish that would make the trip from the Elkhart, Indiana region into the Big City with various goods and sell them in the lobby of the big skyscrapers. Not the cheapest goods, but they were high quality and the target market had the money to spend on such things. The Amish would hire a van and pack it full of their stuff, then hire an English driver to navigate the interstate and get the stuff to its destination. Then they’d all pile onto the South Shore and South Bend Railroad to travel to the Big City themselves, because, I gather with the train as a viable alternative it was preferable to them riding in cars/buses (as I rode the train, too, I had the occasional opportunity to speak with them which is how I found out about some of this. Aside from actually buying some of their stuff downtown). Initial events were a bit rocky, as they did not accept debit or credit cards - strictly cash or personal check (despite the risks of bad checks). Once the buying public understood this, though, people showed up with forms of payment acceptable to all. Interact with these folks at all and you start to understand that they are neither naive nor ignorant - they’re actually savvy business folk even if they have a few unusual rules they live under. Anyhow - car ownership ties you more to the world. You have to be licensed. You have to maintain the car, insure it, pay fees and taxes and so on. You might also be tempted to travel for pleasure rather than spending time in your community. Whereas if you hire a car and a driver you are paying only for the transport you actually need, for a very specific purpose, and you’re far less likely to do things on the spur of the moment. Remember, too, that “the Amish” are a group of people who have all bought into the lifestyle. In my area about 25% of the Amish kids don’t stay Amish, they either join less restrictive churches or even go entirely secular. Those that stay in the community choose to live under the rules. > [@UltraVires](#): > > I would also assume that if I had a successful farm that it would not be permitted to hire a personal driver every day. Depends on the reason. If you needed to travel for medical care every day (say, for cancer chemo or radiation treatments) sure, you could do that. Amish do travel on business - the group I mentioned selling stuff in the Chicago Loop started with two days a week and increased from there, so I could see them hiring the van driver six days a week (they took Sunday off, Sabbath and all that). This wasn’t a hobby in their viewpoint, it was a business operation and a new market for their goods. Even if they had had the time to load up a horse drawn wagon with this stuff and ride into Chicago the roads they’d need to travel are not at all suited to horse travel. So mechanical transport had to come into the picture somehow. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Maybe it is just an outside opinion and maybe I am just rules lawyering, but surely an Amish person gets frustrated about having to ride a buggy into town at 13 miles per hour when he just watched his neighbor whisked away to Philly in a car and questions the rationale for these conflicting rules. You’re assuming the Amish person has a desire to travel to Philly. If there is a reason to travel fast other than just “I want to travel fast” then it could be permitted by the Amish. Medical evacuation via helicopter for serious injuries, for example. If there is no other practical way to get somewhere - some Amish have visited the Holy Land and used airplanes for at least part of the trip. And if your hypothetical Amish person needs to get to Philly quickly said Amish person can hire an English driver to do it. If said Amish person feels a need to go to Philly every single day at speed they may already be on their way to no longer being Amish. Or they’re selling goods at a farmer’s market or in the lobby of corporate skyscrapers as a means to make a living. Sure, Amish people question rules - that’s why over the years various communities have changed the rules they live under. The Amish are not fixed in stone, they are living communities which means they do in fact change over time. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/52 "2021-06-05T14:41:39Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > It just seems to me that if car travel is bad, then I should not ride in one. Because it’s not that traveling in a car is bad. Traveling in a car is fine- it’s owning one that’s bad. Because owning one makes it easier to drive to Philly which might result in people traveling to Philly in their free time rather than remaining in their own community. It’s like nuns who take a vow of poverty - they can’t own a car , but that doesn’t mean the community can’t own one or that they can’t travel in one. It doesn’t mean the nun can’t work as a lawyer or a teacher or a nurse- but it means that her pay is turned over to the community rather than being hers to spend as she chooses. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/53 "2021-06-05T15:46:25Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Although it appears that “rumspringa” is a noun, not the infinitive of a verb. I’m not sure what it would be in Standard German. Herumspring? Herumsprung? In standard German, herumspringen or the shorter alternative rumspringen are infinitives meaning “to jump around”. Both can be transferred to nouns by adding the definite article “das” and capitalizing, so “das Rumspringen” means the act of jumping around. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/54 "2021-06-05T19:32:57Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > Later, I lived in Great Falls, MT, and there were Mennonite colonies around Montana, that would come into Great Falls for various things. Are you thinking of Hutterites? I lived in northern Montana, not far from two of the many Hutterite colonies dotting the state. I don’t know of any Mennonite colonies in Montana. Hutterites often came into the town where I lived, sometimes to pick up supplies, but often to sell vegetables, chicken, and eggs. (Only the men were involved in the latter.) ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/55 "2021-06-05T19:38:36Z")
I think you’re right–they were Hutterites. Sorry 'bout that! Tripler There were a few Hutterite colonies in ND, too. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/56 "2021-06-05T21:30:26Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > My parents used to visit some Amish friends in Iowa that didn’t have electricity, but had a propane-powered refrigerator. Must be in the Amana Colonies. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/57 "2021-06-05T21:46:25Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Must be in the Amana Colonies. The Amanda colonies were Pietists, not Amish. They came from Germany, via New York state and lived in a communal society in Iowa. Grew up a few miles from Amana. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/58 "2021-06-05T21:47:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Must be in the Amana Colonies. Heh. I’m not sure what the story is about the Amana Colonies, but the fact that wine and beer are made there leads one to believe that they are not Amish… Edit: Ninja’ed by @BippityBoppityBoo! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/59 "2021-06-05T21:51:52Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > The Amanda colonies were Pietists, not Amish. They came from Germany, via New York state and lived in a communal society in Iowa. > > Grew up a few miles from Amana. I know, but then the joke doesn’t work. Because Amana…fridges…never mind… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590/60 "2021-06-05T22:19:36Z")
The Amish in nearby Smicksburg will ride in the bed of a pickup truck. Or maybe that’s the rule of the driver. But I feel bad seeing them huddled over in a summer rainstorm. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-the-old-order-amish-various-questions/943590.md?page=4)