# Let's talk about Vonnegut **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 16, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696 "2004-03-16T20:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/1 "2004-03-16T20:06:25Z")
Years ago I inherited an uncle’s collection of paperback Vonnegut novels. (And Billy Bragg tapes, but I guess that’s another thread.) I just read _Cat’s Cradle_ for the eightieth (or so) time and am halfway through _Breakfast of Champions_ (which I’ve also read more times than I can count). Wow, he’s great. What a gift for words. “I could carve a better man out of a banana.” And the bit in BoC where he unapologetically inserts himself into the narrative: “I do not know who invented body bags. But I do know who invented Kilgore Trout: I did. I gave him hair but I never let him brush it or cut it …” and then sits in the hotel restaurant, surveying his characters from behind his mirrored sunglasses … And the ending of _Slaughterhouse Five_. He just does endings well. _God Bless You, Mister Rosewater_ may be my favourite (after CC, of course). If that makes me a big communist, so be it. I like the irreverent science stuff - ice-nine, for instance, or descriptions of humans as meat and chemicals. Also, is there a better post-apocalypic novelist? I don’t think so. He does it all so well (like in _Welcome to the Monkey House_, with the suicide parlours and overcrowded apartment buildings). I love his recurring characters - Mr Trout, of course, whose cameo in _Rosewater_ just makes my day, but also Eliot Rosewater (who turns up in Breakfast of Champions). And I loved _Hocus Pocus_, where everyone is colour-coded. What is the significance of “Goodbye, Blue Monday”? I think I read it in one of his books but I can’t remember. I haven’t ventured far from my incomplete paperback collection: I have read some books a zillion times (the above (CC, BoC, SF, GBYMR, HP, WttMH), plus Mother Night, Slapstick, Sirens of Titan, Player Piano, Jailbird), some only once (Galapagos, Timequake) and the rest not at all. Where should I turn next? Sorry for the disjointedness of this OP. I just want to chat about my favourite author for a bit, if anyone’s interested. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/2 "2004-03-16T20:12:44Z")
His nonfiction is worth reading. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/3 "2004-03-16T20:19:49Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > His nonfiction is worth reading. Has he quit writing altogether? I suppose all those cigarettes finally got to him. Just about every picture I see of Vonnegut has him with a cig between his fingers. What’s his non-fiction? I have never seen his non-fiction unless you mean the speeches he has given, reduced to book form. Is that what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/4 "2004-03-16T20:21:59Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > “I could carve a better man out of a banana.” Vonnegut was paraphrasing Teddy Roosevelt, who said, “I could carve out of a banana a man with more back bone than that” of Oliver Wendell Holmes. The quote was mangled into the form Vonnegut used – and, IIRC, credited to Roosevelt. In any case, I was big Vonnegut fan. I reread CC a few years ago and found it was as good as I remembered, but I haven’t gotten a chance to reread anything else. Living in Schenectady, I do find his earlier novels interesting, since Illium, NY, is based on Schenectady, and his “Deer in the Works” is set in the GE company. When I worked at GE, I supposedly was in the same building Vonnegut worked in. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/5 "2004-03-16T20:29:26Z")
My highschool English teacher grew up next door to him. She just remembers running through the house with his daughter (who later married, to Kurt’s public disgust, Geraldo Rivera) and her cranky old dad yelling, “Would you kids keep quiet? I’m tryna write here.” I used to be a HUGE KV fan, but then after a while I found his single tone of voice–a kind of world weary shrillness, that built for me to an uremitting whine–te be monotonous. He’s great when he’s great, but he’s grating when he’s grating. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/6 "2004-03-16T20:31:21Z")
I’ve only read two Vonnegut novels: _Slaughterhouse Five_ and _Cat’s Cradle_. I found both of them to be intensely aggravating and unenjoyable. Could never put my finger on why, though. I remember reading _Slaughterhouse_, and having an ever-increasing urge to slap someone every time I saw the phrase “So it goes.” I think part of it was a feeling that I was being talked down to by the prose. Lectured, almost. I found it very off-putting. ---
**Author:** ![FabioClone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@FabioClone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FabioClone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/7 "2004-03-16T20:31:46Z")
About “Goodbye Blue Monday:” In _Breakfast of Champions_, he makes it the advertising slogan for a washing machine company. > [@](#): > > ``` > The motto of the old Robo-Magic washing machine cleverly confused two separate ideas people had about Monday. One idea was that women traditionally did their laundry on Monday. Monday was simply washday, and not an especially depressing day on that account. > > ``` > > People who had horrible jobs during the week used to call Monday ‘Blue Monday’ sometimes, though, because they hated to return to work after a day of rest. When Fred T. Barry made up the Robo-Magic motto as a young man, he pretended that Monday was called 'Blue Monday" because doing the laundry disgusted and exhausted women. > > The Robo-Magic was going to cheer them up. Make of that what you will. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/8 "2004-03-16T20:32:33Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > _God Bless You, Mister Rosewater_ may be my favourite (after CC, of course). If that makes me a big communist, so be it. That’s my favorite too and I lean towards libertarianism. I’ve read and enjoyed most of his stuff but **Slapstick** put me off as just organized stream of conciousness crap. Best first line ever is in **Harrison Bergeron** : > [@](#): > > It was the year 2081, and everyone was finally equal. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/9 "2004-03-16T20:39:03Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Also, is there a better post-apocalypic novelist? Walter M. Miller, Jr. (No relation) ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/10 "2004-03-16T20:43:09Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Vonnegut was paraphrasing Teddy Roosevelt, who said … No way ! thanks for the tip. FTR It wasn’t credited to anyone in the novel (the younger Castle said it in reference to the younger Hoenniker). > [@lissener](#): > > He’s great when he’s great, but he’s grating when he’s grating I agree. I feel about him the way I do about John Irving: I can (and have) gone on marathon sprees of reading as many of their novels as possible, then suddenly it’s as if a bell goes off and my limit has been reached. It’s cyclical: I read a Vonnegut (or Irving). I love it. I read another, and another, and another. I get fed up with/tired of/mired in misery because of Vonnegut (or Irving). I find something else to read. Time passes. I look at the bookshelf and think “Man, Vonnegut (Irving) sure is amazing! I should pick up Cat’s Cradle/Eliot Rosewater/The Cider House Rules again …” and then we’re back to the beginning. **Fabio** : thanks ! I guess I haven’t gotten to that part yet. Is this something that has some sort of external relevance? I mean, he often talks about things that sound as if they are actually referring to something IRL, but in fact are made from the whole cloth of Vonnegut’s mind, but sometimes he talks about things that sound like absurd BS but are completely true. **Miller** : any books in particular? I thirst for new material ! Interesting to see the negative responses, I have a friend who feels the same way. He is kind of grating (Vonnegut, I mean, not the friend), I can see. I interpret his style as sort of silly and loveable and friendly, but I can also see it as patronizing. ---
**Author:** ![Kepi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kepi/32/7251_2.png) [@Kepi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepi)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/11 "2004-03-16T20:54:10Z")
I peed at the urinal next to him once. He had come to my university (Texas Tech - Go Raiders!!) to give a lecture. I worked in the student activities office, which brought him to campus. A group of us went to dinner with him, then afterwards, but before his lecture, I wound up in the same restroom as him, standing at the urinals. Oh, yeah. And I read _Slaughterhouse Five_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/12 "2004-03-16T20:56:52Z")
**cowgirl** : Check out _A Canticle for Leibowitz_. Great little nuclear holocaust story told in the form of three novellas spanning a couple centuries of time. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/13 "2004-03-16T21:14:12Z")
FYI, it’s a well known fact that the GREATEST post-apocolyptic novel ever written–in fact, one of the greatest novels written in English since Joyce died–is _Riddley Walker_ by Russell Hoban. Just to set the record straight. ---
**Author:** ![FabioClone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5f8ce5/32.png) [@FabioClone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FabioClone)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/14 "2004-03-16T21:19:42Z")
I haven’t been able to find any evidence of “Goodbye Blue Monday” being used as part of any advertising campaign. It sounds like something he just made up or liked the sound of. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/15 "2004-03-16T21:24:56Z")
> [@FabioClone](#): > > I haven’t been able to find any evidence of “Goodbye Blue Monday” being used as part of any advertising campaign. It sounds like something he just made up or liked the sound of. Seems like there’s a band with the name, I got quite a number of hits out of Google. The question is, then, are all those people Vonnegut fans? Hmm … Thanks for the novel tips, **Miller** and **lissener** , I will take them straight to the library ! ---
**Author:** ![Mal\_Adroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Mal\_Adroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mal_Adroit)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/16 "2004-03-16T22:38:59Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > FYI, it’s a well known fact that the GREATEST post-apocolyptic novel ever written is _Riddley Walker_ by Russell Hoban. It really is. I’ve been meaning to pick that up again. Vonnegut’s gotta be one of the most _humane_ writers we have, and certainly one of the most reader-friendly. _Cat’s Cradle_ and _God Bless You, Mr. R_ rank extremely high among books I’ve read, though I was disappointed by the majority of stories in _Monkey House,_ which turned out to be pretty damn saccharine. I look forward to finally sitting down with what the universal consensus seems to regard as his masterpiece, _Slaughterhouse Five._ **Tigers2B1,** he has a great collection of essays and lectures called _Wampeters, Foma, and Granfalloons._ Almost as entertaining as his novels. Think there’s another one called _Fates Worse Than Death,_ but I’m not familiar with it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/17 "2004-03-16T23:31:15Z")
To each her own, but reading Vonnegut makes me just so goddamned happy to be alive. Even if he’s writing about syphilis or slavery, I always feel honoured to have access to hs mind. He’s the reason I donate to the public library, and he makes me want to teach people how to read. There are very few authors who make me feel that way (Saki- HH Munro- and Ray Bradbury are two of them). ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/18 "2004-03-17T00:19:39Z")
Busy, busy, busy. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/19 "2004-03-17T00:57:47Z")
ARRRRRGHHHH \ what it it with you Canticle of Liebowtitz people??? I read that vile piece of sludge at the urging of someone I have thankfully forgotten decades ago, BLECCHH. Then after reading a couple of threads here picked it up again because I thought I must have missed the point. Again BLECCHH. The only good thing about it the second time around was I realized that Pratchett was writing a parody of it in Small Gods, hehehe. Don’t even try to compare Canticle to any thing by Vonnegut. \. Your screen will return to it’s normal operation now. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696/20 "2004-03-17T01:08:50Z")
I’m not a big fan of Vonnegut on the whole; I’ve started reading _Breakfast of Champions_ and _Slaughterhouse Five_ several times each, and just can’t get compelled to finish. I appreciate Vonnegut’s whole schtick, of inserting himself in the story and deconstructing the book as he’s writing it and all that, but appreciating it and enjoying it are two different things. Those two books just seem like too much of it; I feel like he’s winking at me the whole time. But _Galapagos_ is one of my favorite books ever. He takes just the right tone with it – he’s still there, the whole time, but he doesn’t get in the way of the book or let all the gimmicks overrun the story. When the story’s allowed to play out, his message is conveyed more subtly, and it’s more effective – it’s reading a book and getting an impression from it, instead of being lectured to. And the gimmick that he uses in the book (putting an asterisk after the name of a character as they’re about to get killed) is very clever, pretty subtle, and of course fits in perfectly with the theme of natural selection. I think that’s about as much Vonnegut as I can take, though. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-vonnegut/234696.md?page=2)