# Let's talk about when guns DID save the day. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 28, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177 "2013-03-28T14:53:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/1 "2013-03-28T14:53:42Z")
(I know. As if we need another gun thread.) I know the information is limited with regards to Hero with a gun, but of the limited stories out there, I’ve never heard of a hero saving the day with a thirty round assault riffle. Has this ever been the case? Why is the pro-gun crowd worried they wont adequately be able to defend themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/2 "2013-03-28T15:04:57Z")
Assault rifles (or riffles) are pretty much illegal throughout the US. You have to have special federal permits for them. So outside of the military there will be a very small sample of people you are talking about. Or did you mean something else? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/3 "2013-03-28T15:07:42Z")
This will be fun. ---
**Author:** ![AngelSoft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angelsoft/32/440_2.png) [@AngelSoft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelSoft)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/4 "2013-03-28T15:07:45Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > (I know. As if we need another gun thread.) > I know the information is limited with regards to Hero with a gun, but of the limited stories out there, I’ve never heard of a hero saving the day with a thirty round assault riffle. > > Has this ever been the case? > > Why is the pro-gun crowd worried they wont adequately be able to defend themselves? I was listening to a right wing radio show a while back, about when this whole explosion of talk about gun laws started. She presented a story where a woman was alone at home with her kids and had a home invasion. The woman apparently closed herself up in a closet with the kids and a gun. The man pursued, opened the door and she started firing. Apparently only one of the six shots fired hit him. And that, the talk show host argued, was proof that we can’t put a law on the number of rounds in a clip. Because, I swear to god she said this, women tend to be such poor shots that they NEED all those rounds in order to survive in such a situation. So. It’s the fault of us women-folk that we need thirty round clips. We just can’t do what needs to be done with just six. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/5 "2013-03-28T15:08:55Z")
[February 28, 1997](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout). Bank robbers, armed with semiautomatic rifles and covered with body armor, faced off against LAPD officers armed with 9mm or .38 caliber pistols. Fortunately, nearby firearms dealers were able to supply the officers with AR-15s, equalizing the firepower somewhat until the SWAT team could arrive. ---
**Author:** ![Collaborator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Collaborator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Collaborator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/6 "2013-03-28T15:17:08Z")
They’re not rare at all, you just have to know where to look. Here’s a quick example: [http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/16/surveillance-camera-captures-the-dramatic-moment-a-security-guard-used-an-ar-15-to-fend-off-armed-holdup/#](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/16/surveillance-camera-captures-the-dramatic-moment-a-security-guard-used-an-ar-15-to-fend-off-armed-holdup/#) An AR-15 is not an assault rifle, but I’m assuming that’s what you’re thinking of. A 30 round magazine is the norm, but 10-20 is also common. ---
**Author:** ![Collaborator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Collaborator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Collaborator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/7 "2013-03-28T15:19:50Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > So. It’s the fault of us women-folk that we need thirty round clips. We just can’t do what needs to be done with just six. In an actual firefight, unless you’re at point blank range, six rounds isn’t likely going to get even a extremely experienced range shooter anywhere. You’re not standing there in proper form exposed shooting at a stationary target. You will miss, a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/8 "2013-03-28T15:30:28Z")
> [@Collaborator](#): > > They’re not rare at all, you just have to know where to look. Here’s a quick example: > [http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/16/surveillance-camera-captures-the-dramatic-moment-a-security-guard-used-an-ar-15-to-fend-off-armed-holdup/#](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/16/surveillance-camera-captures-the-dramatic-moment-a-security-guard-used-an-ar-15-to-fend-off-armed-holdup/#) > > An AR-15 is not an assault rifle, but I’m assuming that’s what you’re thinking of. A 30 round magazine is the norm, but 10-20 is also common. Yes, this is what I’m talking about. I don’t know much about guns so you’ll have to forgive my coice of words. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/9 "2013-03-28T16:17:26Z")
> [@Collaborator](#): > > In an actual firefight, unless you’re at point blank range, six rounds isn’t likely going to get even a extremely experienced range shooter anywhere. You’re not standing there in proper form exposed shooting at a stationary target. You will miss, a lot. I don’t know anything about the particular case, but being in a closet and firing at someone opening the door sounds nearly point blank. OTOH, the the invader may have suspected she had a gun, so opened the door from an oblique point. OTOH, many people would probably try to fire a warning shot (or 4) instead, not being able to bring themselves to shoot somebody. OTOH, the whole thing may not have happened at all and be an urban legend. ---
**Author:** ![Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Cornelius\_Tuggerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cornelius_Tuggerson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/10 "2013-03-28T16:46:11Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > [February 28, 1997](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout). Bank robbers, armed with semiautomatic rifles and covered with body armor, faced off against LAPD officers armed with 9mm or .38 caliber pistols. Fortunately, nearby firearms dealers were able to supply the officers with AR-15s, equalizing the firepower somewhat until the SWAT team could arrive. False, the robbers used fully automatic assault rifles, the ones you need a federal permit for. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/11 "2013-03-28T16:56:08Z")
World War II. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/12 "2013-03-28T17:00:41Z")
Let me get this straight. You’re asking why stories of heroism using “assault rifles”\* is so comparatively rare when compared to people using handguns and such for the same purpose? Isn’t that like asking why so few people are killed by Buicks at sea? You can’t exactly stuff a rifle in your pockets. Otherwise, incidences of self defense in a random stranger’s own home using whichever weapon isn’t widely reported because it’s not interesting to most people. Even if it did happen, you probably wouldn’t hear about it because the media is retarded about gun journalism ([obligatory link](http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/Bear-45-70/Emoticons/Mediagunknowledgechart.jpg); also initially reporting automatic M-16s, amended to semi-automatic, amended to AR-15, amended to Mini-14). \*I am going to ignore the semantics and use the word the non-official way. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/13 "2013-03-28T18:02:50Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > World War II. Actually no. Assault rifles were invented by the Germans in 1944 and not that widely fielded. The allies were not using assault rifles or even weapons that would be considered assault weapons as currently defined by the US government. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/14 "2013-03-28T18:11:25Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Actually no. Assault rifles were invented by the Germans in 1944 and not that widely fielded. The allies were not using assault rifles or even weapons that would be considered assault weapons as currently defined by the US government. In non-official usage, I would consider the BAR to be a true assault rifle. (It even has “rifle” right in the name!) ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/15 "2013-03-28T18:17:57Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > I was listening to a right wing radio show a while back, about when this whole explosion of talk about gun laws started. She presented a story where a woman was alone at home with her kids and had a home invasion. The woman apparently closed herself up in a closet with the kids and a gun. The man pursued, opened the door and she started firing. Apparently only one of the six shots fired hit him. And that, the talk show host argued, was proof that we can’t put a law on the number of rounds in a clip. Because, I swear to god she said this, women tend to be such poor shots that they NEED all those rounds in order to survive in such a situation. So. It’s the fault of us women-folk that we need thirty round clips. We just can’t do what needs to be done with just six. Nearly everybody tends to be a poor shot under stress–even police officers. > **[Question About Marksmanship Under Stress \[Archive\] - The Firing Line Forums](https://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-499232.html)** > > \[Archive\] Question About Marksmanship Under Stress Tactics and Training [http://www.theppsc.org/Staff\_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf](http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf) Quotes from the above PDF– > [@](#): > > In reviewing even earlier annual issues of NYPD’s SOP-9, it became apparent that we remain pressed by many issues that police trainers grappled with decades ago. For instance, the 1981 issue of SOP-9 notes, > “It has been said that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can certainly do the same at three feet. The reports do not bear out that assumption. Standard revolver courses of fire may have little relationship to an individual gunfight.” And > [@](#): > > A report published in 1998 reported that the District of Columbia Metropolitan Police had nearly 500 firearms “incidents” from 1994-98 in which they fired over 2,500 rounds. In these incidents, 157 suspects were shot, 45 fatally. There were 126 instances in which officers fired more than six rounds, and 67 instances in which officers fired more than ten rounds. Hit probability was not available for publication. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/16 "2013-03-28T18:22:50Z")
It’s true, you don’t hear much about a armed citizen defeating the bad guys with a semi-auto rifle. There are several reasons for this, one being the fact that unless the bad guys are actually shot & killed, it rarely makes the news. But the real reason is that such guns are comparatively rare, and are thus rarely involved in _anything_, including crimes. Mostly, you hear about them in a “mass shooting’ which is a horrible thing, but also very rare. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/17 "2013-03-28T18:23:57Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > In non-official usage, I would consider the BAR to be a true assault rifle. (It even has “rifle” right in the name!) You could make that argument. I would consider it more of a machine gun than an assault rifle. To unwieldy to fit the usage of the word. It was designed to be used with the bi-pod. The STG-44 is considered the first modern assault rifle. The BAR is certainly the ancestor of such weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/18 "2013-03-28T18:34:44Z")
Now that I think about it more I’d have to say the BAR can not be considered an assault rifle. It is select fire like an assault rifle however it is an open bolt weapon. It’s action is like a machine gun not a rifle. It was deployed as a light machine gun like a modern SAW not like modern assault rifles. But the point can be argued. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/19 "2013-03-28T18:43:00Z")
> [@AngelSoft](#): > > I was listening to a right wing radio show a while back, about when this whole explosion of talk about gun laws started. She presented a story where a woman was alone at home with her kids and had a home invasion. The woman apparently closed herself up in a closet with the kids and a gun. The man pursued, opened the door and she started firing. Apparently only one of the six shots fired hit him. And that, the talk show host argued, was proof that we can’t put a law on the number of rounds in a clip. Because, I swear to god she said this, women tend to be such poor shots that they NEED all those rounds in order to survive in such a situation. So. It’s the fault of us women-folk that we need thirty round clips. We just can’t do what needs to be done with just six. I wonder if the kid ever got his hearing back? ---
**Author:** ![Fleetwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fleetwood/32/271_2.png) [@Fleetwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fleetwood)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177/20 "2013-03-28T18:48:10Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Otherwise, incidences of self defense in a random stranger’s own home using whichever weapon isn’t widely reported because it’s not interesting to most people. Even if it did happen, you probably wouldn’t hear about it because the media is retarded about gun journalism. Most of the media wouldn’t put out good news like this because it goes against the message they are pushing - large capacity, _scary looking_ weapons have no place in our society and must be banned. If I assault you with a weapon, it is an assault weapon, be it a cucumber, hockey stick or an M1-Abrams tank. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-when-guns-did-save-the-day/654177.md?page=2)