# Let's talk bourbon and rye **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** liquor-alcohol\ **Created:** [October 21, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829 "2013-10-21T16:19:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/61 "2013-10-28T02:09:12Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > No it isn’t. Jack Daniels is not Bourbon. It cannot even legally call itself Bourbon just like Miller Sharps cannot legally be called beer, just like sparkling wine from California is not champagne. A Puffs is not a Kleenex, a Valentine One is not a Fuzzbuster, and an Igloo is not a Thermos. Just because you call something something doesn’t make it what you call it. These things matter. Yes it can; there’s not a “Tennessee Whisky” category as far as the ATF is concerned, so it’s considered one of Bourbon, Corn, Malt, Rye, Wheat, Blended or “Light”, since it’s clearly not Scotch, Irish or Canadian whiskey. My guess is that it’s technically Bourbon for governmental purposes, since it’s predominantly corn, but less than 80% corn (the criteria for “corn whiskey”). You can’t just go and make “whiskey”- the ATF basically requires your whiskey to fall into one of the above categories. So for all intents and purposes, Tennessee Whisky is Bourbon made in Tennessee. Some undergoes the Lincoln County Process (charcoal filtering) but there’s no requirement. [Relevant Federal Regulations Link](http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:1.0.1.1.3.3.25.2&idno=27) ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/62 "2013-10-28T02:37:31Z")
Exactly my point. JD meets every legal requirement to be bourbon minus the paperwork. They could change nothing about it and label everything in their barrelhouse bourbon tomorrow if they fill out a form. Does the absence of that form make it not bourbon? Is paperwork the defining characteristic of bourbon? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/63 "2013-10-28T03:44:54Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Does the absence of that form make it not bourbon? Is paperwork the defining characteristic of bourbon? It’s one of them. It’s not Bourbon. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/64 "2013-10-28T03:47:08Z")
> [@stoplight](#): > > Its marketing pure and simple You can’t blame them - at least one person here has drank the JD & Kool-Aid®… ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/65 "2013-10-28T04:02:05Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It’s one of them. > > It’s not Bourbon. Well, gonna disagree on that one. Bourbon was a particular recipe long before the paperwork came into play. And it still manages to be bourbon elsewhere on the continent. > [@](#): > > Whiskey sold as Tennessee whiskey is also defined as bourbon under NAFTA[13] and at least one other international trade agreement,[14] and is required to meet the legal definition of bourbon under Canadian law,[15] ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/66 "2013-10-28T20:25:11Z")
**Quote:** \* Whiskey sold as Tennessee whiskey is also defined as bourbon under NAFTA[13] and at least one other international trade agreement,[14] and is required to meet the legal definition of bourbon under Canadian law,[15] \* Considering what Canadians think is beer this does not convince me! ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/67 "2013-10-29T00:06:16Z")
I know you’re kidding around, but you are aware that [one of the finest beers in the world](http://www.unibroue.com/en/beers/15) comes from Canada, right? Anyway, let’s get this thread back on track. I like bourbon. Who’s with me? ---
**Author:** ![stoplight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@stoplight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stoplight)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/68 "2013-10-29T01:02:08Z")
Any thoughts on Woodford Season Oak? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/69 "2013-10-29T01:16:34Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I know you’re kidding around, but you are aware that [one of the finest beers in the world](http://www.unibroue.com/en/beers/15) comes from Canada, right? A fluke, like a .183 lifetime hitter tagging a grand slam. They also are responsible for Labatt’s, Molson and Carling Black Label, which is bordering on war crimes. 😛 But next to me is a snifter of Elijah Craig 12. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/70 "2013-10-29T01:40:41Z")
There’s nothing in the legal definition of bourbon that excludes Lincoln County Processed whiskeys, but the tradition is that bourbon and Tennessee whiskeys are two different categories. (I have been told by tour guides at KY distilleries that it’s part of the legal definition, but it isn’t.) So sure, if you don’t care about tradition you can say they’re the same thing, but as a Kentuckian I will fight to the death over such distinctions. Besides, Jack blows for the money. There are spectacular bourbons in the same price range and serviceable ones for much less. Currently in the cabinet: Woodford Reserve, Woodford Reserve Double Oaked, Basil Hayden’s, Elmer T. Lee, Four Roses Small Batch, Evan Williams Black (the little bottle that I fill from the big bottle in the pantry–it’s the cooking bourbon). Also ryes from Bulleit, Knob Creek, and Rittenhouse. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/71 "2013-10-29T02:30:56Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > Besides, Jack blows for the money. There are spectacular bourbons in the same price range and serviceable ones for much less. Plus it’s made in a dry county.☹ Back in the early 90’s on my way home from Gulf Shores I drove 80 miles [round trip] out of my way thinking I’d get some free samples. No such luck!:mad: Oh, well. I’m a Beam man, anyway. Booker Noes sales pitch was _ **"If you are unsatisfied with Jim Beam Bourbon, return the unused portion and I’ll drink it**!"_ ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/72 "2013-10-29T02:46:26Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > From the [Jack Daniels](http://www.jackdaniels.com/faqs) website: > > _ **Jack Daniel’s is not a bourbon - it’s a Tennessee Whiskey.** _ This is a true thing. My original statement - that you’re drinking Jack if you’re a bourbon man - is also correct. Because when there’s no bourbon, Tennessee Whiskey is what you use as a fallback option. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/73 "2013-10-29T04:24:29Z")
On my shelf at home (at least it better still be on my shelf, I’m in Afghanistan right now): Bookers, Woodford Reserve, Wasmund’s single Malt, Bulleit ryie, Few rye, Copper Fox Rye, and a barrel full of 125 proof rye spirits that I’m aging myself. Also I think there’s a bottle of Oban 14 y.o. there as well. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/74 "2013-10-29T05:18:16Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > On my shelf at home (at least it better still be on my shelf, I’m in Afghanistan right now): Bookers I really like Bookers. It’s definitely (IMHO) a strictly sipping Bourbon. I like it neat with a glass of water on the side and a silver spoon. I’ll forgive drinking it on the rocks. But if I see somebody mixing it…!:mad: Fools! ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/75 "2013-10-29T06:02:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > On my shelf at home (at least it better still be on my shelf, I’m in Afghanistan right now): Bookers, Woodford Reserve, Wasmund’s single Malt, Bulleit ryie, Few rye, Copper Fox Rye, and a barrel full of 125 proof rye spirits that I’m aging myself. Also I think there’s a bottle of Oban 14 y.o. there as well. PM your address to me. I’ll go check on it for you. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/76 "2013-10-29T06:11:43Z")
Yeah, nice try. Man, I can’t wait for a Manhattan on my front porche when I get home. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/77 "2013-10-29T13:50:41Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Plus it’s made in a dry county.:(\* As was Makers Mark, until recently. (That part of Marion County was dry, anyway–I don’t think the whole county was.) The first time we visited the distillery (around 2002) there were no samples and the only thing you could buy was a 375ml bottle that you dipped in red wax yourself in a Crock-Pot in the corner of the tiny gift shop. Now it’s a big slick gift shop with a fancy dipping area, and I understand they have a sweet tasting room now. Last year I was out Christmas shopping in Lexington and went into Liquor Barn, where Makers had a table set up by the door with a pot of green wax for dipping. A familiar-looking man said, “If you’d like to buy a bottle of Makers today you can dip it in green wax and I’ll be happy to sign it for you. I’m Bill Samuels, by the way.” (If you don’t know, Bill is their longtime master distiller.) I had sworn not to buy anything for myself that day (since I’m bad for coming back from Christmas shopping excursions with more stuff for myself), but I decided that the person who would really enjoy such a gift would be my wife. I even had Bill autograph it to her to make my intentions clear. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/78 "2013-10-29T14:42:58Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > There’s nothing in the legal definition of bourbon that excludes Lincoln County Processed whiskeys, but the tradition is that bourbon and Tennessee whiskeys are two different categories. More interestingly, Prichard’s Tennessee Whiskey is actually made in Lincoln County Tennessee, but doesn’t undergo the eponymous process, making it essentially Bourbon made in Tennessee. This whole “Tennessee Whiskey != Bourbon Whiskey” thing is along the same vein as saying that a Chevy Suburban is not a pickup truck, when in fact it has a pickup chassis, pickup drivetrain, pickup wheels, pickup taxes, pickup emissions regulations, etc… it just doesn’t have a pickup bed. Tennessee Whiskey vs. Bourbon Whiskey is the same thing; Tennessee whiskey just doesn’t have the bed, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829/79 "2013-10-29T15:07:43Z")
I live on the border of NC and SC. NC has state liquor stores and SC has private (with much better selections.) A brand new liquor palace opened up a few hundred yards from my regular place last week. I’m going to check it out today. Hoping for a nice array of rye to choose from. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-bourbon-and-rye/671829.md?page=3)