# Let's talk seriously about Bristol Palin. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993 "2008-09-04T15:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/21 "2008-09-04T15:55:16Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > It’s not that these kids don’t know that contraception doesn’t exist, it’s that parents and church are such strong influences that those at least partly drown out other messages. > > You can draw a parallel to Jewish kids who are raised in kosher households. They know full well what bacon is, but because they got the message that it’s bad, they won’t eat it even if given the opportunity to do so. > > Robin Well, you’re right - but only in the sense that this is a positive thing taken as a whole and not a negative. [Does anything work in sex education?](http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/does_anything_work_in_sex_education/) > [@](#): > > Abstinence education doesn’t work. That was the big hoopla in the American press over the publication of a study by Mathematica, purporting to show that abstinence education programmes don’t work. But with a bit of checking, I found something you are not likely to hear on the evening news. Sex education programmes don’t “work” either. > > …A 2002 study published in the British Medical Journal examined 26 programmes that included school based programmes, multi-faceted programmes, family planning and clinic based programmes, as well as abstinence programmes in the US and Canada. The results: “The interventions did not delay initiation of sexual intercourse in young women or young men, did not improve the use of birth control at every intercourse, or at last intercourse for either men or women, did not reduce pregnancy rates in young women.” > > Another study of a very well-designed and well-delivered sex-ed programme in Scotland was also published in the BMJ. The result: “When the intervention group was compared with the conventional sex education group, there were no differences in sexual activity or sexual risk taking by the age of 16 years.” > > Then there is Douglas Kirby’s 2001 survey of over 300 programmes of all sorts. “Most studies of school-based and school-linked health centers revealed no effect on student sexual behavior or contraceptive use.” > > …When you think about it, this is not surprising. We know from other kinds of studies that the biggest protective factors for delaying teen sex are married parents and religious observance. Some of the sex-ed studies confirm this by showing that within their little samples, family composition, parental supervision, parental expectations for behavior are among the biggest protective factors. In other words, what is going on at home completely dwarfs anything that is going on at school. As Dr Trevor Stammers, a wise British commentator put it: “Much teenage sex has little do with sex itself, but is connected with searching for meaning, identity and belonging.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/22 "2008-09-04T15:58:04Z")
Until McCain publicly apologizes and atones for his joke about Chelsea Clinton, I feel that every child of a Republican candidate is fair game for anything. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/23 "2008-09-04T16:05:26Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Not really. I don’t know what her daughter was taught at home or in church - where conservatives feel sex education belongs at least in part. > > Besides, I’m pretty certain Al Gore taught his son not to drive fast or take drugs, and Howard Dean taught his son not to boost booze from a country club. This isn’t a reflection on them. Why should this be a reflection of Sarah Palin? You really don’t see the irony? You didn’t comment on Al Gore’s huge estate and private jet while he lectured the nation on energy conservation? Huh, color me surprised. Plus Al Gore’s son’s speeding ticket (90 mph in a Prius, whoda thunk it?) and Howard Dean’s son’s booze theft are common knowledge, right? You didn’t acquire this information by some arcane process, it was published in the papers and on the 24 hour news cycle. You heard it, I heard it, all America heard it. If Sarah Palin had not made such a big deal out of it nobody else would have. And you still avoid demonstrating any harsh treatment of Bristol, the point of this whole thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/24 "2008-09-04T16:06:11Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Until McCain publicly apologizes and atones for his joke about Chelsea Clinton, I feel that every child of a Republican candidate is fair game for anything. He did publicly apologize. He apologized to the Clintons and the media carried the story - while not printing the joke as a general rule. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/25 "2008-09-04T16:08:02Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > You really don’t see the irony? You didn’t comment on Al Gore’s huge estate and private jet while he lectured the nation on energy conservation? You can look up what I said about that story. To save you the trouble, I said it was no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/26 "2008-09-04T16:09:23Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Here’s the problem I have with this whole mess. > > The Ford family … . > > … Kitty Dukakis … . > > … George McGovern’s daughter Terry … . > > … Al Gore’s son … Howard Dean['s] … son … . > > But, somehow, the fact that Bristol Palin is pregnant is worthy of massive amounts of newspaper ink and internet speculation. I seem to recall a fair amount of ink and excitement over Jenna Bush and her sister having some issues a few campaigns ago. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/27 "2008-09-04T16:13:21Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The rules of the game have changed. It used to be that the mass media (newspapers, radio, TV) were the gatekeepers, and they could keep things locked up behind the gates. Going back a lot further, no one knew that a president of the US had had polio, crippling his legs, so that he could not walk without someone holding him up. The reporters of the day kept that a secret for 13 years of his presidency. I really think this is it. That, and somewhere along the way we lost the idea that members of the other political party could still be treated with respect and dignity. The name of the game is making your opponent look as bad as possible, and anything’s fair game. Thus, we heard a lot more about Bill Clinton’s sexual indiscretions than about John F. Kennedy’s, for example. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/28 "2008-09-04T16:13:38Z")
Like I said in one of the other threads, the whole point of putting Palin on the ticket was to get the attention of the press. A more boring pick like Pawlenty would have brought a collective yawn as the press went back to talking about how great Obama’s speech was. Instead, they spent the weekend getting to know Palin, her record, and her family in great detail. And then, 72 hours later, with the eyes of the press still focused on her, they announce that her 17-year-old unmarried daughter is pregnant. It was going to be a big deal regardless of her party, and it got more play than it could have because Gustav (thankfully) turned out to be pretty dull. I haven’t seen Obama or any of his surrogates attack either Sarah or Bristol over it. I’ve seen a lot of schadenfreude on the blogs, and I’m not crazy about it, just because I’ve known plenty of evangelical, anti-comprehensive-sex-ed parents who nonetheless had very open and honest attitudes about sex with their teenage kids. They’re a small minority, but they exist, and for all I know the Palins have that sort of relationship. It’s certainly no worse than the response would have been if Obama had a 17-year-old daughter turn up pregnant. But if it is amplified, it’s because it was part of Palin’s coming out party. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/29 "2008-09-04T16:15:23Z")
The obvious issue is that this case would appear to represent a failure of the Religious Right’s abstinence-only approach to sex education. (We can only say “appears”, since we can only presume that Palin has in fact been practicing what she preaches in this regard.) The buried subtext is that this abstinence-only approach arises from an opposition to birth control as well as to abortion. On a political metagame level, it’s the result of throwing rules out the window. The situation resembles the scene in _Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid_ where Butch, pressed into a fight, asks what rules will be in effect. His opponent sneeringly declares “No rules” – so Butch immediately kicks him in the balls. > [@](#): > > When Al Gore’s son got into several situations involving reckless driving and drugs, I don’t recall much suggestion that the Gores were unfit parents, and when Howard Dean had to leave the campaign trail for a few days in 2003 because his son participated in the theft of liquor from a country club, the press and his political opponents let him deal with that. See above. If Gore or Dean proposed any particular policy, the failure of which leads to DUI or theft, I must have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/30 "2008-09-04T16:18:55Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > I think there is a lot of blame to go around here, frankly - the campaign flubbed the announcement of this fact. But that doesn’t account for the fact that this has some people completely unhinged where that really isn’t warranted. Harsh treatment? \*\*\*Harsh treatment?? \*\*\*She’s the darling of the republican party! They’re practically hoisting her up on their shoulders and parading her around the convention hall! I haven’t heard a single harsh word uttered against this kid, and that’s the way it should be. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/31 "2008-09-04T16:19:07Z")
I think there isn’t that much flack directed at Bristol. I think that politics have become nastier in the last twenty years, and the motivating factors behind that change are largely on the Republican side. I think that there’s a perceived hypocrisy when a Republican has a family scandal that just isn’t there for the Democrats, since the Republican party strives to paint itself as the sinless organization that wants to save all our souls. So, to sum up - I don’t think she’s getting hit hard, and whatever flack she’s reaped, was sown by her mother’s party. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/32 "2008-09-04T16:19:28Z")
Repubs know better. They are running on the basis of having a better idea about education, sex education, birth control and abstinence. The fact that they say it so often makes them vulnerable when normal life intrudes. No one really stays up nights worrying about Britsol. We just enjoy that life penetrates the little bubble that the repubs blew up around them. They live in gated ,safe mental communities . Raging hormones broke in. Life wins again. I am sure she can crank out as many children or more than her mother. She is starting young. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/33 "2008-09-04T16:19:58Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Until McCain publicly apologizes and atones for his joke about Chelsea Clinton, I feel that every child of a Republican candidate is fair game for anything. I didn’t hear the joke. What did he say? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/34 "2008-09-04T16:22:35Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Exactly right. You can’t look at this one failure and say “Hey, this proves that Sarah Palin’s methods don’t work!” Again, awaiting cite that Gore or Dean wished to impose a public policy that would impel the use of their methods, and no others, to prevent teenagers from driving under the influence or stealing booze. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/35 "2008-09-04T16:30:07Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Again, awaiting cite that Gore or Dean wished to impose a public policy that would impel the use of their methods, and no others, to prevent teenagers from driving under the influence or stealing booze. Irrelevant, **Steve MB**. The claim was that this incident is somehow evidence that Sarah Palin’s views on abstinence is wrongheaded. In fact, your exact words were that “this case would appear to represent a failure of the Religious Right’s abstinence-only approach to sex education.” It doesn’t – not by any stretch of logic. Even with your disclaimer that this “appears” to present such a failure, that conclusion simply does not follow. Whether Gore, Dean, or Palin wish to impose such public policies or not is simply irrelevant. If this incident does not reasonably demonstrate that her stance is wrongheaded – and it doesn’t, for the reasons that I’ve outlined at length – then all this talk about imposing public policy is nothing but a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/36 "2008-09-04T16:38:43Z")
Instead of talking about Brisol Palin - because what can be said other than “what an unfortunate circumstance, I’m happy she has the support of her family and wish her the best” - lets talk about the reality of public life. The reality of public life is that if you are Rumor Willis and you go out partying in an ugly dress, someone makes a blog post about it because your parents are famous. [http://gofugyourself.celebuzz.com/go\_fug\_yourself/cat\_731/](http://gofugyourself.celebuzz.com/go_fug_yourself/cat_731/) If you are unfortunate enough to be Suri Cruise, people wonder why your parents don’t take you out in public all the time. If you are the children of Pitt and Jolie, they write articles about the circumstances of your conception. If you are Chelsea Clinton, they call you a dog, if you are Barbara and Jenna Bush, your partying with the secret service becomes a press item. You become fair game for everyone who has nothing better to do with their time than gossip about people they don’t know (disclaimer, I have a go fug yourself addiction - I need to write a cron job so the site pops up every day for me at 3:00 - but it would be embarrassing while I’m sharing my screen in meetings - I’m one of the people who has nothing better to do with my time - but Jessica does such a snide job of saying “what in the hell is Posh wearing for a skirt!” I can’t resist). This is the double edge sword of free speech - we are free to comment on the lives of others. And about the manners we have developed where we don’t only feel its our right, but our obligation to judge others. We do it to our own friends and relatives - and we’ll do it to Jamie Lynn Spears even faster because most of us don’t know her. That doesn’t require a great liberal media conspiracy - its human nature - not the most pleasant part of it perhaps, but it is what we are. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/37 "2008-09-04T16:48:34Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I didn’t hear the joke. What did he say? At a Republican function, he said, IIRC, “Do you know why Chelsea is so ugly? Her father is Janet Reno.” So not only did he attack a 13 year old girl whose only sin was being the daughter of the President, but he also worked in a slam on lesbians as well. Totally uncalled for, and an apology is not sufficient atonement for me. It may be for others who are more forgiving, but I am petty that way. And I hate the Clintons! ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/38 "2008-09-04T16:51:02Z")
I’m more than happy to consider Bristol’s pregnancy to be a personal, private matter, off limits to anyone who wishes to stick their noses into it (except her parents, since she is a minor.) In fact, I will make a deal with Sarah Palin. I will agree not to stick my nose into her teenage daughter’s pregnancy, if she will agree not to stick her nose (via the government) into my (hypothetical) teenage daughter’s pregnancy. Deal? Huh. Didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/39 "2008-09-04T17:01:34Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > At a Republican function, he said, IIRC, “Do you know why Chelsea is so ugly? Her father is Janet Reno.” So not only did he attack a 13 year old girl whose only sin was being the daughter of the President, but he also worked in a slam on lesbians as well. Totally uncalled for, and an apology is not sufficient atonement for me. It may be for others who are more forgiving, but I am petty that way. And I hate the Clintons! Jesus, what an asshole! Yeah, unforgiveable. Fucker. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993/40 "2008-09-04T17:02:53Z")
One week ago today (Thursday, August 28) very few people in the contiguous 48 knew who Sarah Palin was beyond, perhaps, “attractive governor of Alaska”. The next day she’s the most talked about woman in the country. ANYTHING that fleshes her out is going to lead. The whole Bristol thing has only been going on for less than a week, and it’s because her mother’s being vetted by the whole nation, Plus there’s some oddity there (she’s out of school _five months_ for mono? Which her boyfriend who was having sex with her during that time somehow didn’t contract? And frankly her pregnancy is newsworthy [note: newsworthy and campaign issue are two different things] due to her mom’s views on abstinence only/cutting funds for teen mothers/etc… None of it will last. By this time next week Bristol will have largely faded from print as we have more things to base opinions of Palin on, whether pro or anti, and Bristol can go back to doing whatever it is she does in private (in fact now that her parents are going to be out of town for at least two months she’ll probably really rock the place). Hijack: my favorite description of Palin thus far comes from another message board- “a demented Peggy Hill”. I can totally see her saying “Team… Sarah Palin!” at any or no opportunities. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-seriously-about-bristol-palin/461993.md?page=3)