Well, this happened to my brother two days ago. His choices were either get wailed on in a corner, or fight back. He pushed the kid away in order to escape. Seems like a reasonable response to me. Teaching kids to defend themselves, like my brother did, gives them a chance to go tell some one before they get badly hurt.
I sure as hell would not let somebody hit me until a teacher broke it up. But, due to zero tolerance, he is suspended for getting away and trying to avoid injury. He didn’t hit or punch the kid, he just pushed him to get away.
Seems like a lazy rule to me. All you have to say is, whoever is fighting is in trouble, but if you are defending yourself, no harm done, as long as it is clear that is what you were doing. In this case there were plenty of witnesses to back him up, but it doesn’t matter with their rules.
I really honestly think the only effective way to deal with physical bullying is to fight back. When I was in 5th grade I took a little bullying from some big older kids, and after a few weeks I’d had enough and punched one of them in the face, giving him a bloody nose. We both got sent to the principal’s office, we were both told how wrong fighting was - no suspension, not even a call to the parents, believe it or not. He never bothered me again. In fact, nobody ever bothered me again.
I wasn’t bullied again until 9th grade, by a big hardass farm kid on the wrestling team. I took that for a few weeks, unsure of what to do (hadn’t dealt with big hardass farm kids until high school,) and then I challenged him to a fight. I lost this one (after a very tough struggle for him, I might add,) but honestly that didn’t even matter. I’d stood up to a guy who had 4 inches and 40 pounds on me. No more bullying after that.
It’s too bad there are bullshit zero tolerance policies. Sometimes you have to fight back - within reason.
I’ll add that I don’t think this mentality extends to adulthood. There’s just too much at stake, and too many lawyers out there. But kids? Let them smack each other around a little - what’s the big deal? Recess can be a machivellian power struggle.
Well, I hope things have changed since I was in grade school many many years ago. Teachers and playground “monitors” never saw a thing when it was one or more bullies thumping on somebody/me, and wouldn’t do a damn thing if the victim/me “reported” it to them.
And the Principal is right and the OP is wrong. Fighting is not good. Hitting back is the wrong thing. Telling the teacher is the right thing. Not matter if it is boys vs boys girls vs girls or girls vs boys. At that age anyway. You don’t hit back- you tell. Not for everything sure. No one like a tattler. So if it’s a spitwad, you don’t tattle but if anyone hits you hard- you tell.
I will bet anything that the Principal did not suggest “…they’ll know to just put up with it!” and in fact hitting back is a very bad idea for women with a abusive male. *You call the Police. You press charges. He goes to jail. * Hitting back just means he gets even more angry and he kills her.
Now sure, if it is going to be rape or murder, then you fight back anyway. But if all you are going to get out of it is a black eye, you accept the black eye as evidence for when he goes away to be “Leroy’s special bitch”, and you have gotten revenge far sweeter and safer than “hitting back”. He’ll learn the real meaning of “spousal abuse” when he becomes the abused “spouse”.
I do suggest that women take some self-defence courses certainly- sometmes you will be afraid for your life and then you have to fight for your life. But that is not “hitting back”. That is* fighting for your life*- which the little 5yo girl was not doing.
I thought the denizens of SDMB considered themselves civilized. If I wanted to see people advocating violence, I’d watch TV. I’m hoping for better from this place.
Then, if the “authorities” don’t take appropriate action, then we should prepare women for the realities of today.
This panglossian view, unfortunately, while admirable, is not a sufficient way to protect women–especially young women–from the advantages (physical) that males take upon them (usually simply upon unexpected impulse).
Of course, it depends upon the situation. While young boys are not always that much stronger than their female counterparts, it’s the psychology that really matters here, because later, the males will be much stronger physically. A shark will avoid as prey an animal that fights back (their eyes can be dammaged, etc.). Many other animals will do the same; the idea is to take the weak and easy prey; for a lion or cheetah, the injured gazelle that can’t keep up with the rest of the pack, etc. So for a girl (or a woman) that can show IN THE MOMENT, that she’ll resist, use some kind of counter-active force…that has a high likelihood of sending off the predatory male.
It’s better to have a violent though purely physical encounter than a violent encounter in which the female is both psychologically and physically injured.
I have the same hopes as you, QG. But “civilization” is full of violence. It was created by violence. The question has always been, violence against whom, and perpertrated by whom.
The advocation of violence is omnipresent today. You shouldn’t think that a SDMB thread about a little girl is contributing to world conflict, or the denigration of “world civilization.” (At least not if you’ve opened a decent newspaper recently.)
Some kids are nasty. They can also be devious little shits. I know this from being a nasty, devious little shit of a kid who used to bully the hell out of other kids. Being clever, I made damned sure not to leave a mark, or get caught. Kids who reported me, it came down to my word versus theirs, so very little happened - the teachers were suspicious, but what could they do?
Then, two to three weeks after the report, I’d really go to town on them, and make damned sure they knew not to grass me up again. A good bully can inflict a shitload of damage on another kid and leave very little in the way of obvious bruising or evidence. I learnt it from the kids who had bullied me, and I was a good study. I inflicted it on other kids, and did so for years without getting caught.
In the end, my entire class ganged up on me, and I got some well earned payback. I had it coming to me, and I’m glad it happened - I got some very pointed lessons over a period of time as to what it felt like to be on the receiving end, and frankly it allowed me to turn a few things around.
By all means argue that hitting back is bad and two wrongs don’t make a right - morally, I’m sure you’re correct. Unfortunately, it isn’t going to keep someone safe even in the protected environment of school, yet alone faced with the dangers of life outside of school.
Sometimes, when someone hits you, hitting them back as hard as you fucking can is exactly what you should do.
Ther is a huge difference between being cornered by a bully and smacked around and clinging to an abusive s/o.
Sure fighting should always be at least plan B, but schools can be big places and depending on the age/size of the kids involved any given staff member may not be capable of intervening effectively.
Fact of any form of conflict, if the attacker has to deal with defensive effort, some of his offensive effectiveness is lost. Bullets, fists, armored vehicles, does not matter. Don’t be the path of least resistance.
Yes, of course with neighbors, I lived in South (Central) L.A. (You know, Harpies, Salvachutras, 18th St., etc.) We always ended up working things out.
If you are specifically referring to a relationship with a woman, I have to say “no,” physically (but I belive violence can be psychological, as well.) I have never laid a violent hand on any woman. But if I had, I would have expected an equal response.
Typically, she just hits me softly in jest, to show that I’m being an “hijo’e’puta.”
Well, I’m not a counselor or psychologist, so I can only speculate. I’d say, “You need to talk to at least a very good friend or relative. But that’s not enough. You also need to talk to some kind of profressional. If you can’t afford it, call immediately to make an appointment with a clinic that suits you, and that you can afford.”
The principal of my elementary school said the same thing to my mother after I used retalitory violence against another 1st grader. This put my mother in a very bad mood as she had been complaining for more than a month that I was being picked on. Essentially, she said the same thing as the mother in the OP.
I don’t think it was because she was a girl. Schools try to teach everybody not to defend themselves against violent people.
All I’m saying is that–some times–at some points–she might have to defend herself physically
The “authorities” aren’t always there." When the “authorities” don’t take action, or when they aren’t present, are you saying that self-defense is wrong, or against some religious doctrine?
The worst beating I ever took was the result of standing up to a bully; he beat the living daylights out of me, but it took him a long time to do it and he sustained a little damage himself. He was seventeen and a (high school) football player; I was fourteen and scrawny. Even so, he never attempted to bully me again. Both of us were chewed out by the principal, made to shake hands, and that was the end of it.
That’s totally crazy, of course. Normally, no teacher or playground monitor notices anything untoward is going on anyway unless the person getting hit, tripped, or whatever decides to fight back. But with that attitude on the part of the school, bullies can be a lot less circumspect about their “horseplay.”
I don’t really see any workable alternative to teaching a kid to fight back. The teachers can’t be everywhere and see everything - far from it. If Kid A hits Kid B, Kid B complains to the teacher, and Kid A denies everything, the teacher can’t do anything. And as Gary Kumquat testifies, Kid A can do a great deal before anyone sees it.
The message one should teach one’s kids, I think, is to not start or provoke fights. But the best way to keep people from starting fights with you is to be ready to finish them.
My daughter was taught to put up as big a fight as possible if anyone tried to molest of abduct her. If she lacked the maturity to discern between an adult predator and a shcoolyard bully and used violence as the default reation toward the latter, tough shit.
When she reached her teens and could be expected to use a measured response, I taught her how to appeal an authority figure for conflict resolution in a way that would not result in the typical harried middle management non-response “oh, well, there’s plenty of blame to go around between the two of you” bullshit.
Meanwhile, the grandfather who had been the 1954 Army boxing champ in his weight division taught her to throw a punch, and the lifetime NRA-member grandfather taught her how to aim for the center of the body mass.
Here’s an idea I’ve been mulling over for a while. Do you think the escalation in violence in schools is because there is a zero tolerance? If kids are able to release aggression in rough horseplay, or minor fist fights when they’re younger, do you think that it keeps them from grabbing a knife or a gun when they hit high school?