# Letter Frequency/Usage **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 24, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491 "2009-05-24T20:03:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alfonzos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alfonzos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alfonzos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/1 "2009-05-24T20:03:48Z")
Where can I find a list of frequency and use of letters and letter combinations in the English language? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/2 "2009-05-24T20:20:30Z")
[Here.](http://www.cryptograms.org/letter-frequencies.php) ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/3 "2009-05-24T20:21:02Z")
I know it is new, but there is a web site for searching. It’s called Google and I used it to find the answer to your question in less than 10 seconds. [Google Search “Engine”](http://www.google.com) [Frequency of Letters in English](http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/frequency) Scroll down for various answers. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/4 "2009-05-24T23:16:11Z")
In the good old days of typeset newspapers, you would often find rows of meaningless letters appearing at random; but they would always say: ETAOIN SHRDLU ETAION SHRDLU No doubt someone will put me right but I understood that the typesetting machines weren’t Qwerty but arranged the letters in order of commonness, and if a typesetter accidentally leant onto the keyboard, a slug of the commonest letters was produced. I am probably talking though my hat entirely. But that is why I know the first 12 most frequently used letters… ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/5 "2009-05-24T23:18:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I am probably talking though my hat entirely. But that is why I know the first 12 most frequently used letters… I used to be fascinated by codes and ciphers, and quickly learned to try ETAOINS first for ciphers. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/6 "2009-05-25T00:06:02Z")
You could have guessed Cecil addressed this… [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2777/whats-the-origin-of-the-mysterious-phrase-etaoin-shrdlu](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2777/whats-the-origin-of-the-mysterious-phrase-etaoin-shrdlu) Also, a previous thread on this. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6127767&highlight=ETAOIN+SHRDLU#post6127767](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6127767&highlight=ETAOIN+SHRDLU#post6127767) ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/7 "2009-05-25T05:34:52Z")
In fact, there’s a short story by Fredric Brown called “Etaoin Shrdlu.” Yup, it’s about an evil Linotype machine. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/8 "2009-05-25T05:37:43Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > . . . the typesetting machines weren’t Qwerty but arranged the letters in order of commonness . . . And there was no shift key; there were separate sections of the keyboard for lowercase and uppercase, and a third section for numbers, punctuation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/9 "2009-05-25T14:38:31Z")
as a long time solver of cryptograms, I’m aware of the typical frequencies. (I also know that, if you make your own lists from particular sources, the frequencies change around a little, but not by much). But there’s something I’ve long wondered about. What are the frequencies of letter usage in other languages? If I were solving a cryptogram in, say, French, what is the most likely order of letters? Or German, or Italian. For that matter, are there significant differences (larger than the variaions you get in binning letters from different sources) between British English and American English, or with Australian English? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/10 "2009-05-25T16:19:13Z")
One I’ve wondered, meanwhile… ETAOIN SHRDLU etc. are the most common letters in English _usage_, but that’s largely because of a few very common words (“T”, for instance, is as high as it is thanks to common words like “the”, “it”, “at”, “to”, “this”, and “that”). But what’s the frequency order for words in the dictionary? That is, giving the same weight to “the” as to “syzygy”? ---
**Author:** ![Omphaloskeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bcef8e/32.png) [@Omphaloskeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omphaloskeptic)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/11 "2009-05-25T16:43:04Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > What are the frequencies of letter usage in other languages? If I were solving a cryptogram in, say, French, what is the most likely order of letters? Or German, or Italian. [Wiki table](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequencies). > [@Chronos](#): > > But what’s the frequency order for words in the dictionary? That is, giving the same weight to “the” as to “syzygy”? With the web2 word list, I get EIAORNTSLCUPMDHYGBFVKWZXQJ. This word list doesn’t include obvious inflected forms, so adding those would probably move S (for example) up the list. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/12 "2009-05-25T16:51:08Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I know it is new, but there is a web site for searching. It’s called Google and I used it to find the answer to your question in less than 10 seconds. > > [Google Search “Engine”](http://www.google.com) > > [Frequency of Letters in English](http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/frequency) > > Scroll down for various answers. Haven’t you posted this before? If so, why not link to it, instead of typing it again? And of course asking questions like this leads to interesting discussions. Unlike your post. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/13 "2009-05-25T17:44:52Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Haven’t you posted this before? > If so, why not link to it, instead of typing it again? > > And of course asking questions like this leads to interesting discussions. > Unlike your post. No, I have not posted it before. Why would I have? And I did answer the question…and was joking about the google thing. Sorry if I offended you. I’m not sure I even understand if you were talking to me. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/14 "2009-05-25T19:49:30Z")
> [@Omphaloskeptic](#): > > [Wiki table](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequencies). I notice that “C” has now surpassed “U,” so we now have “ETAOINSHRDLC.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/15 "2009-05-25T20:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > With the web2 word list, I get EIAORNTSLCUPMDHYGBFVKWZXQJ. This word list doesn’t include obvious inflected forms, so adding those would probably move S (for example) up the list. Ah, that explains the “R S T L N E” on Wheel of Fortune, then, since the answers are mostly single words in the bonus round. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/16 "2009-05-25T22:39:31Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > as a long time solver of cryptograms, I’m aware of the typical frequencies. (I also know that, if you make your own lists from particular sources, the frequencies change around a little, but not by much). But there’s something I’ve long wondered about. > > What are the frequencies of letter usage in other languages? If I were solving a cryptogram in, say, French, what is the most likely order of letters? Or German, or Italian. > > For that matter, are there significant differences (larger than the variaions you get in binning letters from different sources) between British English and American English, or with Australian English? Professional cryptographers have language-specific frequency distributions for whatever language the target messages are in. Different frequency distributions are also based on the characteristics of the target message as well - military jargon has a different distribution than does Valley Girl speak, etc. In addition to the simple one-character frequency distributions, frequency distributions are also compiled for digraphs, trigraphs, etc. ---
**Author:** ![AppallingGael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9bd4f/32.png) [@AppallingGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AppallingGael)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/17 "2009-05-25T22:43:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ah, that explains the “R S T L N E” on Wheel of Fortune, then, since the answers are mostly single words in the bonus round. It used to be that players would choose five and one for the bonus round, but eventually everybody was picking the same six, so the formality seemed silly. So they began to give you those six, and have you request another three and one. I wondered how long till everyone settled on the same four, but so far it is 20 years+ and counting. ---
**Author:** ![dwc1970](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dwc1970](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dwc1970)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/18 "2009-05-28T20:24:21Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I notice that “C” has now surpassed “U,” so we now have “ETAOINSHRDLC.” No doubt the advent of the Internet has changed some of the rankings. You’d think W would have moved up in rank a couple notches with all those www’s out there. The C has also likely gained rank with .com which would mean the O should gain some ranking (which would also have .org working in its favor). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/19 "2009-05-28T20:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I wondered how long till everyone settled on the same four, but so far it is 20 years+ and counting. Well, the first six are chosen blindly, but the next four are after you’ve seen some letters come up on the board, so theoretically you ought to be basing your choices on what you already have. For instance, if you have an N in the penultimate position, I and G might be good guesses, and T blank vowel or S blank vowel are likely to have an H in between. ---
**Author:** ![Kingspades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecae2f/32.png) [@Kingspades](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kingspades)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491/20 "2009-05-28T21:02:46Z")
> [@alfonzos](#): > > Where can I find a list of frequency and use of letters and letter combinations in the English language? Come on, man! Grab a copy of the New York Times and do it [the old fashioned way](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble#History)! 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-frequency-usage/497491.md?page=2)