# Letter of demand for civil claim related to shoplifting accusation (legal opinions) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403 "2017-04-28T00:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/1 "2017-04-28T00:43:48Z")
I know someone (not me) who got caught pocketing a small item in a Target store and paying for other items, but not the pocketed one. Someone at the store took this person’s name and other data. The item was returned, and this person was released with a stern talking-to. Four months later this person gets a letter from Michael Ira Asen, P.C., Attorney at Law claiming to represent Target. The letter cites [state code](https://vacode.org/2016/8.01/3/3/8.01-44.4/) that says that a merchant is entitled to collect a civil penalty from a shoplifter, regardless of whether the merchandise was actually removed from the store and regardless of whether criminal charges were brought. The letter includes a “demand that you pay $69.96 in satisfaction of this civil claim.” There is no basis in the letter for that figure. This person is asking me for advice. I have done some searching and this seems to be just a hair above being a scam. The information regarding the date of the event and the person’s name and address is accurate and it appears that Target did provide the information to this attorney. Walmart seems to use the same guy. Some attorneys are on record on discussion sites that they advise their clients to ignore such letters. The attorney seems to be operating as a boiler room, with a toll free number available 8 AM - 11 PM and a [website](http://www.recoverypay.com/)to submit payments. Although it says this is not a debt collection action, it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. My hypothesis is that Target sells lists of such people to this guy and he collects whatever can through intimidation. Either that or he collects on contingency. Any lawyers out there hear of this guy or similar schemes? I am not asking for legal advice in the sense of asking you to be an attorney for this specific case, but I am looking for professional opinions of this type of operation in general. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/2 "2017-04-28T01:34:59Z")
Not sure why you think it’s a near-scam. States enact civil penalties against shoplifters to help recoup the stores’ considerable expense of cameras, full-time security guards, time spent processing, etc. Somebody has to handle the civil penalty collections. The stores opt to turn it over to Michael Ira Asen, who seemingly makes quite a good living doing so. In my state, the penalty is up to $650 over the cost of the merchandise, even if it never leaves the store, and is still in the orignal packaging, undamaged. $200 to $300 above is typically what I’ve seen. Your friend got off easy. (As far as the $69.96 figure, the merchandise probably cost $19.96 and they tacked on $50. Hardly seems worth Michael Ira Asen’s time.) Your friend is lucky Target didn’t charge him/her with theft. Target is well-known for being tough on shoplifters. Every inch of the stores except for the changing rooms and bathrooms is monitored by camera. The New Yorker even ran a piece about it some years back. Btw, contrary to what many people believe, a person doesn’t have to actually leave the store with the merchandise in order to have it considered shoplifting, at least in my area. Deliberate concealment is considered enough to call it theft. As to what will happen if your friend opts not to pay, I have no idea. I’ve heard mixed things. I’ve heard of successfully negotiating the figure down when it’s really high. Why doesn’t this person just pay the $69.96? If they had gotten caught attempting to break and enter, would a stern talking-to be sufficient? Edited to add: IANAL, but I work in this field. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/3 "2017-04-28T02:50:32Z")
Based on this thread > **[Quizzes | Free Online Quizzes | PCHquizzes](https://www.pch.com/quizzes)** > > PCH offers fun quizzes on a wide range of topics. Animals, history, traveling and more. Test your knowledge and play our quizzes today! it seems quite real and the risks if the store decides to be a hard ass about it far outweigh just paying a piddly $ 70 fine. Pay the fine it could have been so much worse for your friend. His not having a record is a gift beyond price. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/4 "2017-04-28T04:37:22Z")
It’s kind of a mixed bag if the store hasn’t opted to pursue a criminal charge. Paying is an admission of guilt, so the store could then still file a criminal charge with even stronger evidence. On the other hand not paying may make them decide it’s worth reporting it to the police because they can then pursue the money through court ordered restitution instead. Rarely is the value enough for a store to want to sue in civil court for damages, nor do they want to devote employee time as witnesses to a criminal charge. So they just tend to let lawyers take it on contingency to harass or sue shoplifters for payment. Ignoring the demand letters is unlikely to cause further problems because while it’s worth it to the lawyers to send demand letters, it isn’t worth it to take people to court, since the company can’t be bothered to be involved themselves criminal charges are unlikely. Paying it will get them to stop sending nasty letters and is unlikely to cause further problems ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/5 "2017-04-28T11:04:13Z")
Googling it and reading a few web cites, it sounds like some stores have attorneys send claims for several hundreds of dollars. Defense attorneys claim that it’s a scam, but then they would be the ones to profit is you (generic you) wind up in court. $70 seems to be pretty cheap to make the problem go away. I wonder if they would negotiate to promise to not press charges if the friend paid. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/6 "2017-04-28T12:47:02Z")
IF the friend decides to pay, they ought to obtain a solid release from all potential related charges/actions. I’d ask to see the release before paying. If they ignore it, I’m having a hard time imagining a law firm doing anything more than sending a letter for a $70 claim. Unless it is a slam dunk and successful prosecution allows recoupment of fees and costs. (Sorry for the imprecise language, but not my area of practice.) ---
**Author:** ![Sigene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df788c/32.png) [@Sigene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigene)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/7 "2017-04-28T12:53:30Z")
what evidence does the firm or Target have that your friend shoplifted anything? How does Target know that someone else didn’t use your friends information when filling in the forms? was there a signature? video evidence that’s been preserved? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/8 "2017-04-28T12:56:01Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Paying is an admission of guilt… Really? I mean, I understand the inference that an innocent person could refuse to pay on principle, but I can’t see how paying would be an admission of guilt. You might believe yourself to be innocent but decide to pay to make the problem go away - essentially the same as settling out of court, where no legal finding is made. Any lawyers care to comment? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/9 "2017-04-28T13:24:40Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > what evidence does the firm or Target have that your friend shoplifted anything? How does Target know that someone else didn’t use your friends information when filling in the forms? was there a signature? video evidence that’s been preserved? I do not know the specific evidence but this person verbally conceded the shoplifting and presented identification. I do not know if there was a signed admission at that time, or whether there is video evidence. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/10 "2017-04-28T13:27:38Z")
FYI, [one response](https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/i-received-a-civil-demand-letter-in-the-mail-from--923884.html) to a similar question, regarding a letter from the same lawyer, from someone identifying himself as an attorney: > [@Thomas J Callahan](#): > > Ignore it. They have right to send this letter by quirk in the law favoring retailers, but it is essentially a scam, since you likely didn’t steal that much, nor are they likely to go to the expense of suing you. They hope you get scared and pay it. Most of us here uniformly advise clients to ignore these things. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/11 "2017-04-28T15:00:07Z")
The site you linked to quoted a WSJ article. It’s behind a paywall, but I found reprinted. An excerpt > [@](#): > > Once a person’s name is turned over to a collection firm, he or she is dunned with letters and often phone calls, which refer to lawsuits and sheriff’s visits and sometimes multiply the penalty by demanding “pre-litigation” legal fees. . . . The various attorneys on that cite say that you don’t need to worry about it, but then you may be bothered for years by a collections firm. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/12 "2017-04-28T15:14:11Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Not sure why you think it’s a near-scam. Not to speak for the OP, but the part that seems “near-scammy” to me is that the shoplifter was “released with a stern talking-to,” which makes it sound like the case was closed, but then months later is informed via letter that they have to pay a penalty that was never mentioned when they were originally caught. (Although we only have the story second-hand; we don’t know for sure what the shoplifter was told at the time.) If I get pulled over by a cop for speeding or driving with an expired license plate, and he lets me off with a warning, can I expect to get notice of a fine in the mail months or years later? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/13 "2017-04-28T16:34:58Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > IF the friend decides to pay, they ought to obtain a solid release from all potential related charges/actions. I’d ask to see the release before paying. A private company can not release you of criminal charges. That’s between you and the state. They also can’t threaten criminal charges ‘pay or we report you to the police’ is extortion. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/14 "2017-04-28T16:51:17Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > A private company can not release you of criminal charges. That’s between you and the state. They also can’t threaten criminal charges ‘pay or we report you to the police’ is extortion. Like I said, not my bailiwick. I would have imagined that one could say in return for x, they will either withdraw an existing complaint or agree not to file one. But I readily acknowledge that I may be mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/15 "2017-04-28T16:54:13Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Not to speak for the OP, but the part that seems “near-scammy” to me is that the shoplifter was “released with a stern talking-to,” which makes it sound like the case was closed, but then months later is informed via letter that they have to pay a penalty that was never mentioned when they were originally caught. (Although we only have the story second-hand; we don’t know for sure what the shoplifter was told at the time.) This is my thinking as well. There was no statement that civil penalties were going to be assessed. This was the case of a young person making a stupid mistake and I think that’s the way that store security saw it (they face enormous losses from professional shoplifters and I think those are the people they are most worried about). > [@boytyperanma](#): > > A private company can not release you of criminal charges. That’s between you and the state. They also can’t threaten criminal charges ‘pay or we report you to the police’ is extortion. Yes and no. For the state to bring criminal charges they would have to get Target to agree to participate in the case, wouldn’t they? If the harmed party doesn’t want to participate, the state doesn’t have much of a case and it doesn’t seem likely they would subpoena Target for evidence. The letter says that they are “counsel to Target” and so it seems they would indeed have the ability to agree not to pursue criminal charges (none have yet been brought). The letter does say that this civil action is separate from any criminal actions that could still be taken. To clarify matters I will post full text. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/16 "2017-04-28T17:13:25Z")
[Here is the letter](http://www.seiglefamily.com/data/letterredacted.jpg). Just FTR the signature is very obviously a digital image and not hand signed. This is a high-volume operation. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/17 "2017-04-28T17:39:03Z")
Here’s [an interesting article](https://thetorranceattorney.com/2012/05/11/what-to-do-with-the-civil-demand-letter-in-a-shoplifting-case/) by a defense attorney published on his site. A few quotes > [@](#): > > The general consensus in the legal community is that the law firms that send these letters almost never do anything if you don’t pay. One particular firm was quoted recently saying that they send out well over a million letters a year, but rarely file any actual lawsuits. The odds are overwhelming that if you ignore their letter (and the two or three that will follow with increasing amounts demanded), they will in many instances just drop it. You see, they know that even if they were to file a small claims case against you, they likely wouldn’t get anything in a judgment or if they did, it would be far less than the hundreds of dollars they’re asking for and it just isn’t worth their time. There have been instances where the store will go so far as to place a negative entry on the accused credit report, though this is rare and probably illegal unless you agreed to pay the amount or conceded the debt in some other manner. It is much more likely they will pursue the claim against you if you signed an agreement to pay the civil recovery while being detained. They deem your signature to be an acknowledgement of the “debt” and therefore treat it as such for purposes of collection. If you did not sign any agreement to pay a civil demand they can still pursue the civil costs but it is less likely. > > Are they entitled to the money? Probably not. Here is why, the store recovered the merchandise in undamaged condition and simply put it right back on the shelf to be resold. Their actual damages are almost always nothing. The store personnel involved in this situation were already on the clock, so no extra salary was paid to deal with you. Consequently, their actual damages are arguably zero. > > Here is the bottom line. **Paying it, should you feel compelled to, will guarantee that they won’t file that lawsuit against you or continue to hound you for the money by sending letter after letter causing you much stress and worry.** > > (snip) > > One thing though is for sure, if you contact the store or the law firm/collection agency seeking the money then they’ll know they’ve got you on the hook. By engaging with them in any way, either by phone or by mail), they will feel they have somebody who’s willing to pay them and they will keep up their efforts to collect from you. You could advertently say something that could be construed as an agreement to pay, turning this into a different situation. It goes on to suggest a method of negotiating the payment down, if you wish to go that way. Of the little bit of googling I’ve done, this seems to be the best explanation I’ve seen and I recommend reading it. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/18 "2017-09-09T21:03:34Z")
For anyone who is interested, there was a second letter a couple of weeks later, then a third a couple of weeks after that…and then nothing. So I guess they’re just playing the odds and trying to scare people into paying. They do seem to have a legal right to collect but this is a civil penalty and I doubt they will go to court over it. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/19 "2017-09-11T19:42:31Z")
For them to actually file suit would require them to have Virginia counsel on hand, and to prove the damages which is limited to two times the items value. They can get attorney’s fees for $150.00 which to me would make this a non-starter. Unless they have staff in Virginia pursuing other matters in this Courthouse, I don’t think it’s economically viable. That said, I’ve been in General District Court when collections matters are being pursued, and the amount of stuff they have is astounding. One attorney usually has about 20 matters on the docket, and the judge just works through all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2017, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403/20 "2017-09-13T07:11:28Z")
It might be worth your friend’s time to pull one of their free annual credit histories. That should show if the merchant sold this “bill” to a collection agency. Better to know/deal with it now, rather than find it hiding out there, when they try to get a new mortgage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letter-of-demand-for-civil-claim-related-to-shoplifting-accusation-legal-opinions/785403.md?page=2)