# "Letting Off Steam" in Afghanistan (Contractor Indicted) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 17, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917 "2004-06-17T21:04:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/1 "2004-06-17T21:04:04Z")
[Washington Post story](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49344-2004Jun17.html): > [@](#): > > A contractor working for the CIA was indicted Thursday in connection with the beating death of a prisoner in Afghanistan – the first civilian to face criminal charges related to U.S. treatment of prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq. > > The four-count indictment was handed up in Raleigh, N.C., against David A. Passaro, 38, for the June 21, 2003, death of a prisoner in U.S. custody. Attorney General John Ashcroft said Passaro was accused of “brutally assaulting” the man while questioning him over two days. > > The prisoner, identified as Abdul Wali, was being held at a U.S. detention facility in Asadabad, in the Kunar province of Afghanistan. Court documents say Wali had surrendered and was being questioned by Passaro about frequent rocket attacks directed at the U.S. facility, close to the Pakistani border. > > \ > > Wali died in his prison cell after Passaro beat him “using his hands and feet and a large flashlight” during two days of interrogations, the indictment said. > > Passaro, 38, of Lillington, N.C., was ordered held without bond… > > \ > > The indictment charges Passaro with two counts each of assault and assault with a dangerous weapon – the flashlight. He faces a total of up to 40 years in prison, and up to a $1 million fine. Federal law allows civilian charges to be brought against U.S. citizens for crimes overseas if they are not under military jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/2 "2004-06-17T21:37:12Z")
Um, where’s the rant? Are you outraged by the contractor? Those who are prosecuting him? The Washington Post being scooped by Fox News? What? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/3 "2004-06-17T21:59:36Z")
You’re smart, **Lib** , even if you’ve got a funny way of showing it sometimes. You figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/4 "2004-06-17T22:17:44Z")
Well, it’s a news clip. The guy’s indicted and faces 40 years in prison and a million dollar fine. Ashcroft calls it a brutal assault. I can’t imagine what you wouldn’t like about any of that. News of the assault itself is pretty old now, and that’s not what the clip is about. It’s about the arrest. You are pitting the arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/5 "2004-06-17T22:24:26Z")
Why can’t the press stop parroting this ridiculous euphamism ‘contractor’? They’re fucking mercenaries. Yes, I know it’s an ugly word. It’s an ugly profession, too. Calling them ‘contractors’ makes it sound like they’ve been brought in to rennovate the barracks. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/6 "2004-06-17T22:33:39Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Why can’t the press stop parroting this ridiculous euphamism ‘contractor’? They’re fucking mercenaries. Yes, I know it’s an ugly word. It’s an ugly profession, too. Calling them ‘contractors’ makes it sound like they’ve been brought in to rennovate the barracks. Plus, “Contractor of Fortune” just doesn’t sound scary enough. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/7 "2004-06-17T22:38:36Z")
What I find interesting is that, per the article, this was a series of assaults carried out over a two-day period. This means one of two things: [ol] [li]The supervision at the facility was so poor that no one noticed the guy slowly killing the inmate.[/li][li]People did notice the guy killing the inmate, and didn’t stop it.[/li][/ol] I think either scenario implies that more people need to be prosecuted for this. Anyone know if this is in the works? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/8 "2004-06-17T22:48:01Z")
Maybe the guy should have fessed up and told him where the rocket attacks were coming from. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/9 "2004-06-18T00:24:16Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Maybe the guy should have fessed up and told him where the rocket attacks were coming from. How heartless. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/10 "2004-06-18T00:34:26Z")
He murdered a man and he’s charged with assault? Is that the best they could do? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/11 "2004-06-18T00:36:14Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Maybe the guy should have fessed up and told him where the rocket attacks were coming from. You think perhaps maybe…the guy didn’t know? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/12 "2004-06-18T01:52:35Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > News of the assault itself is pretty old now, and that’s not what the clip is about. Maybe the underlying story is pretty old now, but to be quite honest, it’s the first I’d heard of it. Maybe there’s just so much bad shit coming out these days that even a devoted news junkie like me can’t keep track of it all. But this is the sort of story that if you hear about it once, it’s not like you can forget it. At any rate, this thread is about this merc beating a prisoner to death over two days. FWIW, I’m not ‘Pitting’ anything, as the verb is used here, even though this thread is in the Pit. It’s in the Pit rather than GD because there’s no debate that I can imagine. This is evil, that’s all. What is there to say? [More Pittable is this, I suppose:](http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040617-secdef0881.html) > [@](#): > > GEN. PACE: It’s also important to reaffirm, very important to reaffirm that regardless of how the U.S. military gets custody of an individual that we are expected to treat them humanely – we will treat them humanely – and that the orders that go out with regard to those kinds of things are humane treatment. So there’s a question – > > ``` > Q But you're not on the blower saying, "Hey, what's new with the intelligence? Tell me when you hear something new from these folks." > > SEC. RUMSFELD: That's true not only of anyone that we might be asked to hold for another government agency, but it's also true of those that we pull in, our forces pull in, whether it's in Afghanistan or in Iraq. > > You know, let me say one thing to follow on Pete's comment. I've been kind of following the headlines and the bullets in the television -- the big, powerful hits on torture and this type of thing that we've seen. Needless to say, I can't read all the articles, and so I'm no expert on what every person says, and I know headline writers and people dramatize things. > > But in thinking about it all, and I have to be a little careful -- we know that there's still more investigations going on, and we're going to learn more information, so no one can speak with finality or definitively or conclusively at this stage. But -- and second, I have to be a little careful about what I say because of the risk of command influence. But let me just say this: I have read this -- editorials, "torture" -- and one after another. Washington Post the other day -- I forget when it was -- just a great, bold "torture." > > The implication -- think of the people who read that around the world. First of all, our forces read it. And the implication is that the United States government has, in one way or another, ordered, authorized, permitted, tolerated torture. Not true. And our forces read that, and they've got to wonder, do we? And as General Pace said, we don't. The President said people will be treated humanely, and that is what the orders are. That's what the requirements are. > > ``` That comes as a relief to us all, I know. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/13 "2004-06-18T03:36:44Z")
Did I miss a step here? I recall when the photos from the prison first came out, certain somebodies here and out there (like Rush) were portraying the whole thing as ‘prankish’ behavior. Recalling that for example the one Republican Senator who’d seen all the reports referred to ‘much much worse’ and also ‘rape and murder’ (IIRC), some of us suggested that even if you were gonna give folks a ‘pass’ for the draping underwear on the prisoners head, there did indeed seem to be reprehensible behavior on teh part of some of the Coalition team members. and we were shouted down w/ 'so some Senator says ‘much much worse’ so what? where’s the proof there were murders? etc. Now a short time later when some one if actually indicted for at least some behavior leading up to a death, it’s now ‘old news’? anyone recall folks doing the ‘my bad, I guess some of them did fuck up in serious ways’??? ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/14 "2004-06-18T03:54:30Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Why can’t the press stop parroting this ridiculous euphamism ‘contractor’? They’re fucking mercenaries. Yes, I know it’s an ugly word. It’s an ugly profession, too. Calling them ‘contractors’ makes it sound like they’ve been brought in to rennovate the barracks. Well, I know at least one ex-special ops type who is a civilian contractor about to go to work in Iraq, and he’s sure as hell not a mercenary. He’s bodyguarding some suit over there. His bad luck, it’ll be a guy from Halliburton… 😉 Mercenaries are folks who fight in other people’s wars for cash. Doesn’t sound like what’s been going on at all. Have any of these civilian contractors been fighting for either side? Nope. And it is an ugly profession. Sorry about the hijack, but comments like that piss me off. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/15 "2004-06-18T05:24:45Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > Well, I know at least one ex-special ops type who is a civilian contractor about to go to work in Iraq, and he’s sure as hell not a mercenary. He’s bodyguarding some suit over there. His bad luck, it’ll be a guy from Halliburton… 😉 > > Mercenaries are folks who fight in other people’s wars for cash. Doesn’t sound like what’s been going on at all. Have any of these civilian contractors been fighting for either side? Nope. And it is an ugly profession. > > Sorry about the hijack, but comments like that piss me off. What planet are you on? The “civilian contractors” mentioned in the news have largely been doing things like guarding supply convoys, etc. That may not be engaging in front line combat, but it’s certainly mercenary work. So is providing personal security for official figures in a war zone. Now, there _are_ civilian contractors over there, working to rebuild infrastructure, etc., but these are not generally the people being described as ‘contractors’ in news reports. That’s what makes the term so insidious. The people being described are mercenaries, working for companies like [Blackwater](http://www.blackwaterusa.com/), but clearly the powers that be want us to think that they’re rebuilding oil pipelines or repairing the power grid. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/16 "2004-06-18T05:43:59Z")
Can someone explain to me how it is you contract out the interrogation of prisoners? I’ve never seen Interrogators R Us in the phone book. Come on down to Unpainted Interrogators. I can get that intel for $29.95 or my names not Nathan Interrogator. (watch, someone will link to that now) ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/17 "2004-06-18T06:48:34Z")
Damn. I’ve been interpreting the term “civilian contractor” completely wrong. My dad’s a contractor, and I assumed the word was referring to his profession–the planning and supervision of construction. This puts a whole new light on all of those stories referring to “civilian contractors” that I’ve seen and read, one that makes me even more unhappy with how things are going in the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/18 "2004-06-18T08:21:24Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Can someone explain to me how it is you contract out the interrogation of prisoners? > > I’ve never seen Interrogators R Us in the phone book. > > Come on down to Unpainted Interrogators. I can get that intel for $29.95 or my names not Nathan Interrogator. > > (watch, someone will link to that now) [Here’s who you call](http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/reports/report.asp?ObjID=TutDBqRhAY&Content=387): > [@](#): > > **CCR FILES LAWSUIT AGAINST PRIVATE CONTRACTORS FOR TORTURE CONSPIRACY > Charges U.S. Corporations Conspired With Officials To Torture Detainees in Iraq** > > Two U.S. corporations conspired with U.S. officials to humiliate, torture and abuse persons detained by U.S. authorities in Iraq according to a class action lawsuit filed June 9, 2004, by the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and the Philadelphia law firm of Montgomery, McCracken, Walker and Rhoads. > > The suit, filed in federal court in San Diego, names as defendants the **Titan Corporation of San Diego, California and CACI International of Arlington, Virginia and its subsidiaries** , and three individuals who work for the companies. > > It charges them with violating the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) and alleges that \*\*the companies engaged in a wide range of heinous and illegal acts in order to demonstrate their abilities to obtain intelligence from detainees, and thereby obtain more contracts from the government. \*\* > > The action also brings claims under the Alien Tort Claims Act (ATCA), and the 8th, 5th, and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution as well as other U.S. and international laws. Close enough, yes? Here’s a copy of the complaint (warning: pdf and graphic descriptions of torture): [http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/september\_11th/docs/Al\_Rawi\_v\_Titan\_Complaint.pdf](http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/legal/september_11th/docs/Al_Rawi_v_Titan_Complaint.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/19 "2004-06-18T10:32:26Z")
Does anyone else remember Donald Rumsfeld, when the torture/abuse scandal first broke out, referring to a “72-item matrix” of what kind of treatment could be used on prisoners? For about 24 hours there were many soundbites of him saying that, and then it was dropped and never mentioned again. And now everyone in the administration is claiming no sort of abuse was ever condoned. Anyone else remember that? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917/20 "2004-06-18T13:00:06Z")
> [@Number Six](#): > > Damn. I’ve been interpreting the term “civilian contractor” completely wrong. My dad’s a contractor, and I assumed the word was referring to his profession–the planning and supervision of construction. Some of the “contractors” described in the news are real contractors, like your Dad. Some - such as the four who were killed in their cars that started the whole al-Sadr thing in April - are in fact mercenaries. The media uses the term for both, interchangeably. Note that it is not illegal, however, to use a person from your own country in a contracted role as a soldier. The international convention against the use of mercenaries only defines a mercenary as a person hired to carry arms **who is a citizen of no nation involved in the conflict.** So the USA is not breaking any international law by hiring Americans in such a role. They would be breaking the law by, say, hiring in South Africans or Chinese or Belgians. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/letting-off-steam-in-afghanistan-contractor-indicted/250917.md?page=2)