# LGBT - Do all of these different groups really want to be lumped together? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 8, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728 "2010-05-08T06:09:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/61 "2013-06-04T19:36:27Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > - There were lesbians calling trans-lesbians “secret MRAs” or saying that they’re just straight male perverts who were trying to force lesbians to be heterosexual. There were transsexuals with a serious degree of sexual entitlement and those who tried to argue that their penis was “in no way male”, among other things. Even buried in the questionable rhetoric there were a lot of valid points beneath them, but it mostly just seemed to be a flame war. What’s a ‘MRA’? I don’t imagine its anything complementary. If anything all these arguments and falling out just prove one thing…that people are just people, and you get nice people and nasty people and every variant inbetween no matter what ‘category’ a person falls into. btw a better acronym/term is really needed, even LGBT doesn’t really slip easily off the tongue. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/62 "2013-06-04T22:55:34Z")
Men’s Rights Activist. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/63 "2013-06-05T19:46:55Z")
I see, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/64 "2013-06-06T17:34:45Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > On the contrary, it is the transsexual who holds an inflexible view of gender identity, for it is they who assign undue meaning to what it means to be a male or a female. If a man does not conform to the stereotypes of the male gender identity, that does not make him less of a man. This post makes no sense as-written. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/65 "2013-06-06T17:36:40Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > As a crossdressing male, I’d say we’re incredibly simplifying things. In the male transgendered community, there’s a lot of diversity. It includes for example: Why do you say male transgendered community, but then talk about transwomen? Which community are you in? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/66 "2013-06-06T18:09:34Z")
Please excuse typos, I’m trying to get this in over lunch. It’s difficult to have a concise answer for why transsexuals such as myself are in the LGBT community, but I’ll try to summarize 70-some years of history. Also note, there are a lot of different takes on this. I know people who focus on Stonewall as the be-all and end-all of the start of social progress, but I think Stonewall while notable was not nearly as important as folks think it was. Note that much of this is informed opinion on my part, not a scientific fact which can be measured or weighed. I have read more than 100 trans histories and more than 1,000 research articles on trans history alone, let along thousands more on the medical and legal issues. Blatant appeal to authority here, or if anything, appeal to person who read an awful lot and who has firsthand experience. Starting in December, 1952 when Christine Jorgensen’s story was leaked to the press, and then for the next few years afterwards, transsexuals found themselves in an interesting position - they were new enough and unique enough in occurrence such that many more people were intrigued, rather than scared or doubting their own manhood over the phenomenon. This changed as more and more transgender people discovered that there was this ray of hope, that change was possible. And that’s when early researchers like Benjamin et al. were stunned by the numbers out there - and as the newspaper reports became more and more common, towards the early 1960’s, the attitudes of society began to change. What drove the change? A few of things - first, as the numbers grew and researchers were stunned, alarmed even over the large number of transgender persons, “normal” people in society started to wonder. Could their son quit football and turn into a “sissy?” Could that largish woman in the ladies’ room the other day have been a guy? People started to see transsexuals as a threat to the American way of life. Second, the early transitioners did so in an era when science was still celebrated - the “atoms for peace” era, the time before the anti-science movement of the mid-late 1960’s. People started to see science as no longer having the cure to all our ails, but also being the agent of unwelcome advances and scary changes. Such as men turning into women. Finally, to be blunt, Christine and several others of the early “out” transsexuals were starlets. Some photos of Christine put her on par with Marilyn Monroe, and some photos of April Ashley are easily a 10/10. The problem is, just like with ciswomen, transwomen come in all shapes and sizes, and sadly many will never pass, no matter what. The prevalence of transwomen who don’t pass created an “uncanny valley” effect, which was then turned into negative humor in the popular media. By the time the 1960’s were in full swing, transsexuals were seeing their movement in full reverse, excepting that now we knew there were more of us than we thought. What we were going through had a name, and there was hope, great hope, in defeating our gender dysphoria. Unfortunately, transsexuals now were coming out into a world which really didn’t care too much for them, and thus were relegated to unemployment, underemployment, sex work, etc. We became a very marginalized community, and in the 1960’s-1980’s we were not considered part of the LGB community by most, nor did we consider ourselves such. In the 1950’s through 1990’s, there was a huge overlap between the transgender and crossdressing community, and back in that day the lines were very much blurred between the two. The issues faced by both groups have a common foundation - wanting to dress and act and be socially accepted as female when you have not the genetic, social, or both upbringings. For the longest time the transgender community lived at peace within the CD community, until the 1990’s. Here we get into an interesting development, known as the Internet and World Wide Web. The Internet revolutionized the transsexual community in two ways. First, we could create a virtual community which meant we didn’t have to be the 10% in the corner table at the CD meeting, we could be all and only transpeople. Second, the information which was available opened the eyes of still more transpeople, telling them that “you’re not alone. This is who you are. There is hope.” When I was growing up intersex/trans in the 1970’s and 1980’s, I thought I was the only person on earth like myself for some time, because the scant resources I had via the local public library were silent on the whole issue of transpeople. The Internet catalyzed the transgender community, and gave them the strength to start to break away from the CD community, as well as increasing greatly our numbers. I can’t tell you all what it was like online in the 1990’s in trans chat groups and modem-driven BBSs, where every few days a person would come in and say “thank God! There are other people like me! I’m not alone!” Many in the CD community consider themselves transgender, and use that term frequently. Helen Boyd’s first book “My Husband Betty” will do a much better and lengthier job of explaining what’s behind that belief, and why it’s wrong, and why there is so much low-level friction between the CD and TG communities, than I can here. But ALL transgender people I know or have ever met do NOT consider themselves CDs. So now we have a trans community who don’t think they belong to the CDs, but don’t have enough numbers to stand on their own. So how did they get so connected to the LGB community? Largely through looking for the best possible group to join which was making political strides and which had effective activists. One common thread was HIV/AIDS, which due to the large proportion of transpeople being forced into sex work, was a scourge of the transgender community, just like the G community. Another was same sex marriage, which greatly impacts the transgendered due to most states (at the time) not fully legally recognizing sex changes as changing sex for the purpose of marriage. Due to the fact that about 50-75% of transwomen are lesbian or bisexual (and about 25-50% of transmen are gay or bisexual), there is also that strong connection as well. I identify as lesbian, so I’m technically in the “LTI” (lesbian/transsexual/intersex) community . Woo, I’m out of time for lunch, but I hope this opinion piece helps frame why transpeople are in the LGB community today. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/67 "2013-06-07T04:33:58Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Why do you say male transgendered community, but then talk about transwomen? Which community are you in? I used male transgendered community in the sense of “people born physically male but who do not conform to traditional notions of gender”. Others, like yourself, may have different ideas of what male transgendered means. Crossdressers who consider themselves transgendered are not “wrong”, no matter what Helen Boyd says. (I did read her book, and felt that it too often tried to jam gender issues into a feminist framework that doesn’t always relate to real life.) I would classify myself as a non-transgendered male crossdresser due to my disinterest in living full time as a woman, but many others will call me a transgendered male. The reality is what transgendered/transsexual/crossdresser means is different for nearly everyone in these groups. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/68 "2013-06-07T04:44:09Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > I used male transgendered community in the sense of “people born physically male but who do not conform to traditional notions of gender”. Others, like yourself, may have different ideas of what male transgendered means. Most people in the community refer to an XY transgender person as female. In fact, that’s pretty much the standard etiquette in North America and Europe. > [@](#): > > Crossdressers who consider themselves transgendered are not “wrong”, no matter what Helen Boyd says. It depends on who you choose to cite. Example: GLAAD says CDs are covered under the transgender umbrella; WPATH 7 does not (“gender nonconformity is not the same as gender dysphoria.”) Taking a sample size of just two, I’ll trust WPATH over GLAAD. ---
**Author:** ![Indyellen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/indyellen/32/4176_2.png) [@Indyellen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indyellen)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/69 "2013-06-07T18:06:05Z")
Here’s another (related) topic for discussion. I identify as bisexual. My daughter identifies as pansexual. Her definition assumes that ‘bisexual’ only is attracted to cismen and ciswomen; ‘pansexual’ includes transpeople. I, on the other hand, do not see that it matters. I’ve always believed that ‘bisexual’ means that you don’t care about the gender, you care about the person. Are we both right, or does it even matter? ---
**Author:** ![medstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/70 "2013-06-07T20:42:06Z")
> [@Indyellen](#): > > Here’s another (related) topic for discussion. I identify as bisexual. My daughter identifies as pansexual. Her definition assumes that ‘bisexual’ only is attracted to cismen and ciswomen; ‘pansexual’ includes transpeople. I, on the other hand, do not see that it matters. I’ve always believed that ‘bisexual’ means that you don’t care about the gender, you care about the person. Are we both right, or does it even matter? What does “cis” mean? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/71 "2013-06-07T20:50:09Z")
> [@medstar](#): > > What does “cis” mean? It’s the opposite of “trans”. “Cis” means “within”, i.e., your true gender is the one you were born with. Whereas “trans” means “across”, i.e., your true gender crosses the line from what you were born with. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/72 "2013-06-07T21:15:25Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > This post makes me so fucking pissed off that I’d have to take my response to the pit. But it’s after 3 a.m. and I’m half asleep. So I’ll just say one thing: It’s those screaming flaming queens who paved the way and paid the price for those pathetic cowards who behave quietly, with dignity, within social norms. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Finally, to be blunt, Christine and several others of the early “out” transsexuals were starlets. Some photos of Christine put her on par with Marilyn Monroe, and some photos of April Ashley are easily a 10/10. Bibí Andersen (now Bibiana Fernández, which has been her legal name since her sex change was legally recognized) was a vedette who, like several of her colleagues, got into movies in the late 70s/early 80s - there were also some who went in the opposite direction, from movies to music hall. The shock when people discovered that her ID said “Manuel Fernández” was enormous. To people who’d first known her not as Manuel but as Bibí, she was a woman with legs up to here and “a smoker’s voice”- to her birth family, a freak. She was instrumental both in getting recognition for transexuality and in making many people realize how many streetwalkers were born from “perfectly fine families” who had at some point kicked them out (for being gay, for getting pregnant…). That certainly takes a lot more cojones than most people have - certainly a lot more than marrying a beard, which is what gay people who “behaved quietly, with dignity, within social norms” used to do. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/73 "2013-06-07T22:40:11Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Please excuse typos, I’m trying to get this in over lunch. It’s difficult to have a concise answer for why transsexuals such as myself are in the LGBT community, but I’ll try to summarize 70-some years of history. > > \ > > Woo, I’m out of time for lunch, but I hope this opinion piece helps frame why transpeople are in the LGB community today. Thanks for putting that together, very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/74 "2013-06-07T23:42:21Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As **Antinor01** suggests, the addition of the T to LGB is the most controversial aspect of the grouping. Many Ts and T-supporters want the political movement to encompass rights for the transgendered because they see discrimination against them as coming from the same place as discrimination against the others in the movement, and because they’re much more likely to succeed that way. However, changes to protect the transgendered are much harder to enact, so many in the gay community want the movement to focus just on sexual orientation. Others view this as a sort of Devil’s bargain that HRC and similar groups are all-too-willing to make. > > This issue is closely related to so-called [intersectionality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality) (bad post-modern writing alert), a common issue in civil rights struggles. The racial justice movement began to encounter this issue in the late 60’s as a struggle between the interests of lower middle class blacks and poor blacks. Feminism encountered this when the issues facing white women were very different from those facing black women. And, as the OP suggests, this occurs within the LGBT movement as between wealthy LGBTs and poor LGBTs. [Did Spike Lee cover this ground 25 years ago?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_Daze) ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/75 "2013-06-08T02:49:13Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > […] and what would be the asexuals’ problem? […] I asked somebody who to me seems like an expert. She said there were two issues. One is the issue of erasure, that asexuals can seem not to exist. The other I think was that asexuality gets thought of in medical terms rather than having parity as a valid way of being that is right for some people. At least I think those were the two points. Jeez, this was just yesterday, why am I having such a hard time remembering the details? I mean, I made it a point to go ask! Oh we’ll, I’m trying my best, it was just a long day. ---
**Author:** ![computergeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e56c9b/32.png) [@computergeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/computergeek)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/76 "2013-06-08T12:04:32Z")
As said, the LGBT+ folks band together to help with legal protections among other things. What kind of legal protections would an asexual even need? They just don’t want to have sex or, possibly, date. So what? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728/77 "2013-06-08T12:21:36Z")
> [@computergeek](#): > > As said, the LGBT+ folks band together to help with legal protections among other things. What kind of legal protections would an asexual even need? They just don’t want to have sex or, possibly, date. So what? Is it all about legal protections, though? I think for some people, it’s more of a general advocacy group. I’m thinking of LGBT+ clubs in high schools and colleges. People join these organizations not just so they can push for certain laws, but to promote acceptance and understanding. There is a social stigma against asexuals that needs overcoming. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-do-all-of-these-different-groups-really-want-to-be-lumped-together/538728.md?page=3)