# LGBT Tolerance in Religious America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782 "2018-01-03T03:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/1 "2018-01-03T03:03:18Z")
[According to this very recent article,](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/01/none-of-americas-100-largest-churches-affirm-lgbt-people/?utm_source=MOBFB) of the 100 largest churches in America, the number that affirm LGBT people are a whopping…zero. > [@](#): > > Of the 100 churches, 35 have clear policies that reject LGBT people. A further 54 have unclear policies on LGBT issues, while 11 omit all mention of the issue from publicly-accessible records. Another disturbing statistic is that, of the 537 largest churches they found info about, only 90 have been scored as affirming. Now, people may claim that they don’t represent “true” Christianity, and/or that their own particular religious institution affirms LGBT issues to a great degree. This is fine and dandy…but is it enough? Take another look at the stats _and the quotes_ from established religious leaders-is the fact that your own hands are clean supposed to be reassuring? I’m thinking maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/2 "2018-01-03T04:24:29Z")
The article lists the 100 largest _churches_, not the 100 largest _denominations_. It’s no surprise that mega-churches, which are primarily fundamentalist, don’t affirm LGBT. Meanwhile, dozens of Christian denominations affirm LGBT rights, including United Methodist (14,000,000 members) Presbytarian (5, 600,000) the Episcopal Church (3,450,000 members) the Church of Christ (2,500,000) Society of Friends (Quaker) (213,000) Some denominations leave it up to individual churches, and some, like the Roman Catholic Church, ban it entirely. Yet even in the Roman Catholic Church,[67% of Catholics](https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/more-catholics-support-gay-marriage-than-ever-before.-heres-why) believe gays should have the right to marry. The times, they are a-changin’. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/3 "2018-01-03T04:30:50Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > The article lists the 100 largest _churches_, not the 100 largest _denominations_. It’s no surprise that mega-churches, which are primarily fundamentalist, don’t affirm LGBT. Meanwhile, dozens of Christian denominations affirm LGBT rights, including > > United Methodist (14,000,000 members) > Presbytarian (5, 600,000) > the Episcopal Church (3,450,000 members) > the Church of Christ (2,500,000) > Society of Friends (Quaker) (213,000) > > Some denominations leave it up to individual churches, and some, like the Roman Catholic Church, ban it entirely. Yet even in the Roman Catholic Church,[67% of Catholics](https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/more-catholics-support-gay-marriage-than-ever-before.-heres-why) believe gays should have the right to marry. The times, they are a-changin’. Which group, via television, radio and the internet, has possession of the megaphone right now? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/4 "2018-01-03T04:41:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which group, via television, radio and the internet, has possession of the megaphone right now? Who cares? There are always going to be bigots and loud vocal minorities. Oh look, they elected Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/5 "2018-01-03T04:49:13Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > United Methodist (14,000,000 members) > Presbytarian (5, 600,000) > the Episcopal Church (3,450,000 members) > the Church of Christ (2,500,000) > Society of Friends (Quaker) (213,000) From such numbers, the silence is truly deafening. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/6 "2018-01-03T05:02:09Z")
There are 35 million Baptists in the US, and 15.5 million of them are Southern Baptists. So the numbers for LGBT tolerant churches are not very reassuring. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/7 "2018-01-03T06:01:37Z")
So what exactly are you getting at? Yes, most Christians in the US are not pro-LGBT. This is indeed a bad thing. I am one of many Christians who are trying to change this. Is the argument that I should feel bad because of what these other people do? Why should I? Other Arkansans voted for Trump–that doesn’t make feel bad about myself. I do not control them. Is there an assumption that we are all silent? Because I most certainly am not. Not only is my status as an LGBT ally plain to see, but I’ve been arguing that the Bible doesn’t actually condemn homosexuality about as long as I’ve know there could be one. I’ve been pro-trans pretty much all my life, since the Bible just does not cover anything about what makes a man a man or a woman a woman. If I did not fight this, I would consider myself guilty. For those of us who know, it is a sin to keep silent and not try and fix this. Many LGBT people are (possibly) going to hell not because they rejected God, but because they believe he has rejected them. That is horrible, and it has always been horrible when it has been against other people. I am a Christian because I believe in God and Jesus and all that. Not because I agree with the most popular theology. The idea of feeling guilty because other people do wrong makes no sense at all to me. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/8 "2018-01-03T07:04:26Z")
Upon rereading the OP, this seems more suited to IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/9 "2018-01-03T08:21:10Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Some denominations leave it up to individual churches, and some, like the Roman Catholic Church, ban it entirely. Yet even in the Roman Catholic Church,[67% of Catholics](https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/more-catholics-support-gay-marriage-than-ever-before.-heres-why) believe gays should have the right to marry. The times, they are a-changin’. Many of those Catholics believe that civil SSM should be available but are less sure of whether canonic SSM should be, at least in countries where people are conscious of the difference between the two legal systems. Bonus points for those who also know of the existence of natural marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/10 "2018-01-03T08:46:10Z")
I am a Christian and I support the LBGTQ folks. I work towards love and acceptance, for my congregation and for all Christians. I know several congregations that, while they have not adopted an explicit statement of support for LGBTQ, they in practice do welcome and embrace them. The times, they are a-changin’. The congregations I know of that do not explicitly support LGBTQs have a significant part of their members in their 80s and 90s, and it’s these ‘old school’ members who balk at explicit support statements. I guess it is hard to teach an old dog a new trick. But in practice the congregations do support, but without a blatant, in-your-face statement that the old dogs may (_ **may** _) find distasteful. As the congregation turns over (okay, as the old folk pass on), their representation diminishes and I expect those congregations to adopt the explicit support statements. We are heading in the right direction, and we’re trying to do it with love and respect for all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/11 "2018-01-03T11:27:56Z")
So what if your particular church “makes a statement”. In this war against LGBT rights that these megachurches are waging that is the barest minimum. “Blatant in-your-face statements” are what is needed at this point, because waiting for the old guard to die out before daring to do more is a slap in the face to those you write statements about. If you want to hide behind mere statements, know that Serena Williams didn’t get to where she is today by bringing a badminton racquet to Wimbledon. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/12 "2018-01-03T13:52:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what if your particular church “makes a statement”. In this war against LGBT rights that these megachurches are waging that is the barest minimum. “Blatant in-your-face statements” are what is needed at this point, because waiting for the old guard to die out before daring to do more is a slap in the face to those you write statements about. If you want to hide behind mere statements, know that Serena Williams didn’t get to where she is today by bringing a badminton racquet to Wimbledon. You’re right. This is an outrage! What steps are your church taking to address this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/13 "2018-01-03T14:18:23Z")
I would suggest boycotting those churches. Let me state right here and now that I will not support any Church that doesn’t recognize LGBT rights. Anyone else with me? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/14 "2018-01-03T14:26:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I would suggest boycotting those churches. Let me state right here and now that I will not support any Church that doesn’t recognize LGBT rights. Anyone else with me? I’m with you, but I don’t want to stand too close to you, in case anyone thinks we’re… you know. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/15 "2018-01-03T14:27:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In this war against LGBT rights that these megachurches are waging[…] …and losing. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/16 "2018-01-03T14:28:31Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m with you, but I don’t want to stand too close to you, in case anyone thinks we’re… you know. Make room out on the limb for me. But not too much room; I’m a snuggler. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/17 "2018-01-03T14:34:29Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m with you, but I don’t want to stand too close to you, in case anyone thinks we’re… you know. > [@Ruken](#): > > Make room out on the limb for me. But not too much room; I’m a snuggler. Not that there’s anything wrong with it!! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/18 "2018-01-03T14:56:10Z")
Here’s a list of the megachurches in the U.S.: > **[List of megachurches in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megachurches_in_the_United_States)** > > This is a list of the largest megachurches in the United States with an attendance of more than 10,000 weekly, sometimes also termed a gigachurch. According to that The Hartford Institute's database, approximately 50 churches had attendance ranging from 10,000 to 47,000 in 2010. The same source also lists more than 1,300 such Protestant and Evangelical churches in the United States with a weekly attendance of more than 2,000, meeting the definition of a megachurch. > As the term megachurch i... Note that they aren’t evenly distributed around the country. If you make a list of the states that the majority of them are located in, what is the average attitude toward LGBTs in those states? Is the average attitude toward them in those states any different from the average attitude toward them in the megachurches in those states? Is it possible that the attitudes in those megachurches reflects the average attitudes in those states rather than the average attitude of Christians in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/19 "2018-01-03T14:57:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > …Is the argument that I should feel bad because of what these other people do? Why should I? Other Arkansans voted for Trump–that doesn’t make feel bad about myself. I do not control them… > > …I am a Christian because I believe in God and Jesus and all that. Not because I agree with the most popular theology. The idea of feeling guilty because other people do wrong makes no sense at all to me. I think this question of “guilt by association” is not clear cut, there’s a spectrum. Clearly it’s wrong to suggest that homophobia is a “core value” of all Christianity, any more than it has been a core value of any other religion or indeed the entire human race until fairly recently. It would be pretty ignorant to condemn someone for their professed general Christianity just because _some_ Christians are bigoted assholes. But take an extreme case. Suppose a neo-Nazi KKK-er says: “But I’m not a racist, and many of us are not. I love the KKK for its sense of community and family values, and I’m fighting the racism that do I see in some members of that community.” Clearly that’s idiotic. Racism is a core value of the KKK, and if you’re a civilized human being you are not a member. Just _being_ a member is grounds for condemnation, there is no room for claiming to be a non-racist moderate KKK member. If you’re not a racist, and you want a sense of community without the racism, you obviously must form some new group and call it something else. And between these extremes there is no clear cutoff, there is a spectrum. In the post-Trump world, it has reached a point where some people now feel that Republicanism is so tarnished that no civilized human being could possibly claim to be a Republican. That’s ridiculous, of course. But are there are _some_ Christian churches/groups/sects/denominations that are over that line? I would at least be deeply suspicious of anyone who claimed to be a _fundamentalist_ Christian. I think you can making an argument that homophobia is a core value of _some_ Christian denominations to a point that if you’re a civilized person perhaps you should leave and find another church. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/20 "2018-01-03T14:59:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not that there’s anything wrong with it!! 😉 Of course, of course! Some of my best friends are… erm… what do _they_ liked to be called now? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=2)