# LGBT Tolerance in Religious America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782 "2018-01-03T03:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/181 "2018-01-08T15:53:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Believe whatever the hell you want-It’s when you act on those beliefs to the detriment of others, or when your beliefs lend silent support to those who would act to the detriment of others that concerns me. Well, exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/182 "2018-01-08T15:56:45Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Regardless of religion and politics, this is my philosophy; > > _Which is better for us as individuals and for society? > That we should be who we are? > Or that we should be forced to be who we are not, > for the comfort of the small minded?_ > > There’s too much focus on what other people are doing. > And too little focus on what we ourselves are doing. > > I honestly don’t get how people want to fill themselves up with hate or dislike for someone who is different from them. The entire basis of that to me seems to be fear. Fear that if others are different from us, if others can believe other things or speak different languages or have different cultures, that there might be something wrong within ourselves. So we project that outward and insist that they must be wrong so that we can be correct. > > But there’s so much of that spent on inconsequential bullshit. I don’t give a fuck who you fuck, as long as it is someone capable of giving consent. Beyond that, it really isn’t my business and this constant insistence on regulating other people’s lives and beds is just… > > _ **Busybodyism** _ All those things are … nice. And I can go along with them as a citizen and member of a community. I get along with most everyone. But that doesnt mean I should change my church just because vocal members of the community dont like it. I chose to be a Christian and yes, that is a life defined by certain guidelines. I feel the rewards are worth it. I dont have “hate” for homosexuals nor do I have hate for anyone else like for example, the guys at work who hit the bars every night. Yes, I want them to change. The same as I want others to change their ways. Members of my own family reject Christianity and I pray they will change. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/183 "2018-01-08T15:59:50Z")
A friend of mine described that as “Loving the shell, but hating the contents”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/184 "2018-01-08T16:13:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > All those things are … nice. And I can go along with them as a citizen and member of a community. I get along with most everyone. > > But that doesnt mean I should change my church just because vocal members of the community dont like it. I chose to be a Christian and yes, that is a life defined by certain guidelines. I feel the rewards are worth it. > > I dont have “hate” for homosexuals nor do I have hate for anyone else like for example, the guys at work who hit the bars every night. Yes, I want them to change. The same as I want others to change their ways. Members of my own family reject Christianity and I pray they will change. Does your church openly welcome LGBT folk that are there to worship _but have no intention whatsoever of changing their sexual orientation to the point that the very topic is off the table?_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/185 "2018-01-08T16:47:15Z")
Imagine saying to your spouse, “Honey, I love you, but you are left-handed and left-handed is simply wrong. I am going to try to get you to be right-handed from now on, but just remember: _I love you even though you are not yet right._” How do you think your spouse will respond? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/186 "2018-01-08T16:55:30Z")
Before the Protestant Reformation, it was generally not acceptable for a Christian to say, “here’s what I think about homosexual acts, that differs from what most Christians believe” or “I think usury can be OK” or “I’ve decided I don’t have a problem with a Christian never attending church services.” Other Christians would respond to such a person, “these are matters of God’s own law, and communicated to us through holy Church. You aren’t free to decide, “I’ll have this; I won’t have that,” and remain a true Christian.” For example, Catholic prohibitions against many acts pertaining to marriage, sexuality, and the family date back to Apostolic times - the times when Peter, Andrew, James, Bartholomew, and Thomas walked upon the earth, preaching the Gospel. And these prohibitions are reinforced by the writings of the Fathers of the Church whose lives spanned the years 130 - 165, or 320 - 370, or 980 to 1060. The Medieval 13th and 14th century Fathers are considered “newbies”! when compared to them. But when they have mentioned the acts that the Catholic Church continues to condemn to this very day, they uniformly condemn them, and treat the condemnations as coming from the authority of the Apostles. After the Protestant Reformation, it became easier for men and women to say, “I believe this; I don’t believe that.” And many Protestant communities have felt that it’s important to “get with the times,” setting aside the 2,000 years of teachings by men and women which had forever been considered authoritative on these points. Because of the influence of our Protestant neighbors, many Catholics have begun to adopt this practice as well: “I accept this teaching, but I don’t believe in that one.” But neither the Catholic Church, nor any of the Eastern Orthodox churches has ever believed that to pick and choose is a sure way to remain faithful to God’s own teachings. Few Catholics and Orthodox who continue to adhere to the traditional ways do so out of “hate.” The primary object of their beliefs is not on gays themselves, or on those who support gays, or on the church members who do or don’t support them, or on non-adherents who do or don’t support them, or what people think of them personally . . . the primary object is staying focused upon God and Him alone, as He has been revealed in Scripture and confirmed in the writings of the Doctors of the Church. In this sense, traditional Catholics and Orthodox don’t accept the diagnosis of “hate” for their views; they view their own views as emanating from love and loyalty to God alone. Just my two cents, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/187 "2018-01-08T16:57:36Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > You see I dont because if your not a Christian, then why do you care what a Christian believes? Why would he not, when it influences his daily life? I’ll be very surprised if VP Pence and I share a single idea beyond “2+2=4”, but his beliefs influence US policies. I’d be perfectly happy to be able to not give a shit about what my own regional President believes, likes or hates, but since it has a direct effect on my nephews’ schooling, my taxes, my family’s access to healthcare… sorry, I actually need to care about Ms Presi’s opinions and beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/188 "2018-01-08T17:06:51Z")
I also want to add: A woman may love her husband most devotedly, and stay faithfully by his side, even though drug and alcohol addiction has overtaken him. This wife may wish most earnestly for him to change his behavior, and maybe with the support of Al-Anon programs, realizes that it’s necessary for her to “let go and let God,” . . . to stop “helping” him, but to allow her husband to face the consequences of his own actions. Yet she continues to love him with all of her heart. Or a father may dote on his son, but on learning that his son has skipped school to play video games for the third time this semester, may object most strenuously to the son’s actions. The father may love his son, but he corrects him. Or a son, who has always adored his father, learns that his father has been having affairs with much older women, taking their money, and abandoning them. Many good sons will continue to love their fathers, but will hope very sincerely that their father will cease this way of life. These analogies may fail for many. But it’s certainly possible to love someone most tenderly and devotedly, yet maintain that their _choices_ are not for the best. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/189 "2018-01-08T17:09:58Z")
Even if it isn’t a choice? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/190 "2018-01-08T17:56:07Z")
A key element of Catholic and Orthodox theology is belief in the free will of men and women, and the belief that it’s impossible for Our Creator to ask the impossible of His creatures. Even though it may _seem_ impossible to obey God’s commands, it’s _never_ impossible with the help of His grace. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/191 "2018-01-08T17:59:42Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > A key element of Catholic and Orthodox theology is belief in the free will of men and women, and the belief that it’s impossible for Our Creator to ask the impossible of His creatures. > > Even though it may _seem_ impossible to obey God’s commands, it’s _never_ impossible with the help of His grace. So your god can make me totally right-handed if I prayed hard enough? Can he cure Aids acquired through (what you might consider to be) sinning if people believe and pray hard enough? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/192 "2018-01-08T18:03:05Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > A key element of Catholic and Orthodox theology is belief in the free will of men and women, and the belief that it’s impossible for Our Creator to ask the impossible of His creatures. Did your god guide you to become straight, or did you make that decision on your own? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/193 "2018-01-08T18:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=Euphrosyne;20710717In this sense, traditional Catholics and Orthodox don’t accept the diagnosis of “hate” for their views; they view their own views as emanating from love and loyalty to God alone. [/QUOTE] – Droll smile – yes, and we all know how this mindset served the Third Reich. " We don’t hate the Jews. We’re doing these things because we love our God so very much. " Of course they don’t accept that “diagnosis”. If they did, they would be responsible in the eyes of all humanity. Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/194 "2018-01-08T18:19:17Z")
The Nazi leadership were following their own depraved, pseudo-scientific eugenics program. For Public Relations purposes some pretended to be Christians. But in reality, the Third Reich punished and persecuted Christians who resisted them. Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox faith has ever taught that crimes against humanity are among the commands of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/195 "2018-01-08T18:21:32Z")
I can only repeat, God never commands us to do good and avoid evil, where such would be impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/196 "2018-01-08T18:22:22Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > I can only repeat, God never commands us to do good and avoid evil, where such would be impossible. If I am bisexual, what “evil” am I committing? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/197 "2018-01-08T18:23:51Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > The Nazi leadership were following their own depraved, pseudo-scientific eugenics program. For Public Relations purposes some pretended to be Christians. But in reality, the Third Reich punished and persecuted Christians who resisted them. > > Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox faith has ever taught that crimes against humanity are among the commands of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Is the supposition here that by “Christian” you mean Catholic or Orthodox? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/198 "2018-01-08T18:25:27Z")
Lunch period at a close; must get back to work. Good-bye, and I wish all here a very Happy New Year. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/199 "2018-01-08T18:27:36Z")
No, not at all. Christian beliefs vary so widely from denomination to denomination, it’s nearly impossible to have command of the teachings of all. I can only speak reliably about Catholic and Orthodox beliefs, and then, only _somewhat_ reliably. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/200 "2018-01-08T19:05:57Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox faith has ever taught that crimes against humanity are among the commands of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Hmmm… [Crimes Against Humanity](http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/crimes-against-humanity.html) > [@](#): > > 1.For the purpose of this Statute, ‘crime against humanity’ means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack: > … > c. Enslavement [Dum Diversas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dum_Diversas) Dum Diversas (English: Until different) is a papal bull issued on 18 June 1452 by Pope Nicholas V. It authorized Afonso V of Portugal to conquer Saracens and pagans and consign them to “perpetual servitude”. > [@](#): > > d.Deportation or forcible transfer of population; [Caeca et Obdurata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caeca_et_Obdurata) Caeca et Obdurata Hebraeorum perfidia (named for its Latin incipit, meaning the blind and obdurate perfidy of the Hebrews[1]) was a papal bull, promulgated by Pope Clement VIII on February 25, 1593, which expelled the Jews from the Papal States… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=11)