# LGBT Tolerance in Religious America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782 "2018-01-03T03:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/101 "2018-01-04T19:25:49Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > No, we certainly need to do something about the Klan. My argument is with people who put that onus on white people generally, as if simply having the same color skin as a Klansman makes you guilty. I can’t spek for **Czarcasm** , but I’m only worried about those with a voice. That means the leaders of the good churches. > [@](#): > > And of course, people in the hypothetical town, regardless of race, who have the ability to do something about the Klan problem, need to step up and do whatever they can. But some white person three states away has much less to answer for, in my opinion. And it shouldn’t depend on your race in the first place, assuming you’re not part of the “good old boys” network, working and associating with these Klansmen and looking the other way at their crimes. That’s pretty much why I limited my comment to those living in the same town. I live in the Bay Area. I’d feel less frustrated if I could picket my local Congresscritter - but mine is a Democrat who votes the way I’d want him to vote, and so picketing his office wouldn’t do much good. Now those who lived in the Civil Rights years did come from far away to help. > [@](#): > > So my issue with the OP is that somehow the “good” Christian churches (which ones are “good” being debatable, I’m just assuming they exist for the purpose of argument) have to go above and beyond their everyday enthusiastic support for LGBT issues, simply because other so-called Christians elsewhere have been utterly awful to LGBT people. I don’t see how that follows. > > It seems to me that supportive, welcoming churches should be applauded for being supportive, not chastised for not doing enough. Let’s hold them to the same standards as supportive, welcoming employers, social clubs, families and friends of the LBGT community. Let’s not treat them worse simply because they share the same nominal religion as some unrelated group of bigoted assholes. Does that make sense? And in my example I noted that the people in the town not being personally bigoted doesn’t mean they don’t have an obligation to speak up for the oppressed and against their bigoted neighbors. I understand that there is only so much they can do - they can’t send a thug to threaten the bigoted churches (though it might be interesting to have a gay branch of organized crime). If a certain denomination has strong support for why God and Jesus support their views as opposed to the Baptists, perhaps they could loudly proclaim it. I understand that there is not one Christianity (I’m Jewish, so it is all confusing to me) but they should be able to find Biblical justification for the position. If God, however, is a homophobe, they are invited to join the atheist club. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/102 "2018-01-04T19:32:28Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > OTTOMH Dionysus was at least bisexual. the Hindu hero Arjuna was a bisexual transvestite (as well as being a great warrior). The Chinese monkey king was the god of bisexuality (and the life of any party). I could go on but I’m not at home and don’t have access to my library. Zeus had a thing with Ganymede, which makes him bi by our standards, though the standards of the Greeks were a bit different, as Aristotle notes. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/103 "2018-01-04T19:36:13Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > It sounds to me like, "Of course gays are sinners. We’re all sinners Except Norman Greenbaum. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/104 "2018-01-04T22:43:30Z")
I apologize for causing the confusion with the 14,000,000 number I posted for United Methodists. It’s the total number of Methodists on the planet. Since the discussion has clearly been focused on the United States, I should have used that number instead. I messed up on that one, and it in turn caused problems in the discussion. I’m truly sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/105 "2018-01-04T22:48:05Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I apologize for causing the confusion with the 14,000,000 number I posted for United Methodists. It’s the total number of Methodists on the planet. Since the discussion has clearly been focused on the United States, I should have used that number instead. I messed up on that one, and it in turn caused problems in the discussion. I’m truly sorry. Thou art forgiven. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/106 "2018-01-04T23:48:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This sounds a lot like “Now, I’m not going to say that gays are sinners, but we don’t turn away sinners and we don’t turn away gays, so I’ll let you do the math. Hint hint, wink wink”. If I am interpreting this wrong, just say so. What’s wrong \*with \*saying, “Homosexuality is wrong, but so are a thousand other things, and we are all sinners, and so we accept sinners into the church?” ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/107 "2018-01-04T23:49:44Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What’s wrong \*with \*saying, “Homosexuality is wrong, but so are a thousand other things, and we are all sinners, and so we accept sinners into the church?” Well, see, that takes maturity and humility… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/108 "2018-01-05T00:54:50Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Fifty years ago, just about everyone was a homophobe. If that were the case homosexuality wouldn’t have been decriminalized in the UK in the 60s. I’m not sure when that happened in the US. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/109 "2018-01-05T00:57:00Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > If that were the case homosexuality wouldn’t have been decriminalized in the UK in the 60s. I’m not sure when that happened in the US. [2003, Lawrence v. Texas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/110 "2018-01-05T01:16:56Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > There is sometimes a lack of courage that I see among the low-level clergy of major religions, which may be related to what Czarcasm is trying to point out. > > I give a LOT of speeches to clergy and congregations of churches in the midwest. In some cases, the church I visit is one where the denomination is officially against the very existence of people like me, but the local clergy are either tolerant or even enthused and affirming. Normally after I give my speech about my life and that of my people, there will be half the congregation coming up to hug me, some crying, some saying “we really had no idea that we were hurting people like you,” etc. > > But when I ask the clergy if I should advertise and send transgender persons to their congregation if they are so inclined, then the faces tighten, and suddenly it’s “well…we \*personally \*affirm folks like you, but the Bishop/High Priest/Metropolitan/whomever…they’re kinda funny…” or “well, officially our denomination…yeah. Give it time.” > > Not always, but I’m used to it. I did manage to “convert” a Baptist minister into becoming ordained as a Methodist, because they were so horrified at their own denomination’s treatment of people like me. Almost sounds like NIMBYism. Sure we all like nuclear power in theory but not in my back yard. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/111 "2018-01-05T02:25:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What’s wrong \*with \*saying, “Homosexuality is wrong, but so are a thousand other things, and we are all sinners, and so we accept sinners into the church?” Besides the fact that homosexuality _isn’t_ wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/112 "2018-01-05T02:52:52Z")
In (sort of) answer to the question whether there are any atheists who are opposed to homosexuality, surveys show that (in the U.S.) Unitarians, Buddhists, Reform Jews, and agnostics are only slightly less likely to be opposed to homosexuality, while Conservative Jews and Quakers are only slightly more likely to be opposed to homosexuality: > **[Ranking religions on acceptance of homosexuality and reactions to SCOTUS ruling](https://religionnews.com/2015/06/30/ranking-churches-on-acceptance-of-homosexuality-plus-their-reactions-to-scotus-ruling/)** > > Some religious groups have kept quiet about the Supreme Court ruling. One reason: differences among their members. I suspect that what’s going on is that acceptance of homosexuality is usually just part of the standard package of beliefs for American liberals: > **[U.S. religious groups and their political leanings](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political-leanings/)** > > Mormons are the most heavily Republican-leaning religious group in the U.S., while a pair of major historically black Protestant denominations are two of the most reliably Democratic groups. So if you’re an American liberal, you have a standard package of groups that you believe in tolerance for, and it’s not really your belief or non-belief in God that determines that tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/113 "2018-01-05T03:51:41Z")
Above, I neglected to mention the [United Church of Christ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_and_affirming) - all are welcoming to LGBTQ, though only 1400 out of 5100 are open and affirming. Still, I’m not aware of any other denomination that aired an [explicitly inclusive ad campaign on television](http://www.ucc.org/god-is-still-speaking_ads). > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > [INDENT]An affirming policy means much more than “welcoming” LGBTQ+ people. It means that the church will ordain, hire, marry and baptize LGBTQ+ people. A clear church website’s either indicates this this policy in its primary pages (e.g. Beliefs, About, Values) or clearly and accessibly links to a policy from those pages. [/INDENT] So you can be clear but not affirming and visa versa. Also, you can welcome LGBTQ members, but if you won’t hold a gay marriage ceremony or permit gay ministers, you are not affirming. > [@Nava](#): > > The RCC does all that and I wouldn’t call it queer-friendly. Granted, the baptism part tends to take place before the recipient is of an age to begin dating. FTR, the RCC isn’t on their clear affirming list. Also, they don’t hold gay marriage ceremonies right? > [@Procrustus](#): > > And if we agree they are not, what next? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I may have mentioned a few things in this thread-have a look. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m one of those that the megachurches are waging war against, and I’m asking those churches that claim to be more numerous and powerful to maybe use those numbers and that power. Yell louder? Fuck, yeah. Actively protest _in the numbers you claim to have_? That would be nice. When these hate-filled jerks get more than their share of TV interview time, _demand_ equal time with enough supporters behind you to make it stick? That would be a nice change of pace. Stumbling blocks: There are intra-institutional issues which have been brought up. In addition there are the seven [clobber passages](http://www.religioustolerance.org/homglance.htm), some of which are worse than others. None of them involve the 4 gospels: Una mentioned the queer friendly remark spoken by Jesus in [Matthew 19:9-12](https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/eunuchs-in-the-bible/). Still, Christian doctrine, taken as a whole, provides a less than sturdy foundation for those who espouse something like the brotherhood of man. Even if loving thy neighbor is at the core of the teachings. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/114 "2018-01-05T04:00:01Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > In (sort of) answer to the question whether there are any atheists who are opposed to homosexuality, surveys show that (in the U.S.) Unitarians, Buddhists, Reform Jews, and agnostics are only slightly less likely to be opposed to homosexuality, while Conservative Jews and Quakers are only slightly more likely to be opposed to homosexuality: Since when are Reform Jews atheists? They may not follow Jewish law as strictly as I’d like, but they still believe in G-d. _Reconstructionist_ Jews on the other hand, tend to focus on the Jews as a people and a community- sometimes to the extent of being atheist. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/115 "2018-01-05T05:15:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > FTR, the RCC isn’t on their clear affirming list. Also, they don’t hold gay marriage ceremonies right? The RCC absolutely doesn’t recognize SSM at this time. Several years ago, I attended the wedding of my college girlfriend (who had, years after we parted, realized that she was a lesbian) and her longtime partner. It was at a Catholic church in St. Louis…and, at first, I wondered about that. I quickly discovered that [St. Stanislaus Kostka Polish Catholic Church](http://www.saintstan.org/index.html) is an independent Catholic church; they had disassociated themselves with the St. Louis Diocese several years ago, when the diocese attempted to take control of the non-profit corporation which held the church’s assets (as the diocese was looking for a way to pay off their legal bills surrounding priest sex abuse cases). They swear fealty to Rome and the pope, but follow their own path, and their priest and parish happily officiate and host same-sex marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/116 "2018-01-05T05:24:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Another story that doesn’t pertain to the topic. Skip these stories and just say what you want to say. This sounds a lot like “Now, I’m not going to say that gays are sinners, but we don’t turn away sinners and we don’t turn away gays, so I’ll let you do the math. Hint hint, wink wink”. If I am interpreting this wrong, just say so. I think the big problem here for so many is that many churches have made homosexuality like the ultimate sin. And they have sometimes ignored other sins or downplayed them (such as the married person committing adultery) so as to target gays. That is homophobia and is wrong. Yes sin is sin and in my book and homosexuality is just one of those sins. But again, at my church a gay couple coming thru the doors would be welcomed just like a cohabitating straight couple or a person who just has a hangover from last nights party at the bar or the person who just scammed some people out of their money. Sin is sin and God deals with the hearts of people. Sometimes thru the word and inspiration, sometimes thru the words of others. In the Bible sinners would repent and make amends. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/117 "2018-01-05T05:29:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > What’s wrong \*with \*saying, “Homosexuality is wrong, but so are a thousand other things, and we are all sinners, and so we accept sinners into the church?” Nothing, if you live according to the bible. Jesus sat down and ate meals with the sinners of his time. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/118 "2018-01-05T05:59:26Z")
DocCathode, you misunderstood my point. I was replying to the idea that all atheists tolerate homosexuals, while that’s not true of any other group. If you look at the websites that I linked to in post #112, you can see that Unitarians, Buddhists, Reform Jews, and agnostics are on average just as tolerant (in fact, a little more tolerant on average) as atheists (in the U.S.). Conservative Jews and Quakers are only a little less tolerant on average as atheists (in the U.S.). My point can be seen if you ask yourself what all those groups (Unitarians, Buddhists, Reform Jews, agnostics, Conservative Jews, and Quakers) have in common. It’s not whether they believe in God. It’s that all of them tend to be more liberal than other religious groups (in the U.S.). There’s a standard package of beliefs among American liberals. One of them is tolerance of certain groups, and homosexuals are one of those groups. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/119 "2018-01-05T12:04:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > FTR, the RCC isn’t on their clear affirming list. Also, they don’t hold gay marriage ceremonies right? Nor lesbian ones, no. But that’s not the same as “not marrying gays”, and for a bisexual couple of different sexes the behavior the Church would expect of the spouses is exactly the same as if they happened to be straight. For a couple where one or both spouses happen to not really be attracted to the other, the main question would be whether the marriage can truly fulfill the conditions to be canonically valid, but that also applies in many other cases such as when one of the spouses-to-be or both are of highly advanced age. A cousin of mine got married in the RCC, is still married in the RCC (civilly separated) and gayer than a Pride parade (we knew he was gay before we knew the word… other guys would get lost looking at the girls, he got lost looking at the guys); his wife and him have shared custody of the two kids. I think it’s one of those rules where what the rule _means_ and what it _says_ are a liiiiiittle bit different. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/120 "2018-01-05T12:09:33Z")
I’m surprised to see quakers even that low. They may be conflating quaker _meetings_ and quaker _churches_. The latter of which are a modern aberration of those who got caught up in the evangelical movement. Why they keep the name, I don’t know. And they proselytize, hence all the supposed quakers in africa who are bigots on this issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=7)