# LGBT Tolerance in Religious America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782 "2018-01-03T03:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/121 "2018-01-05T18:56:14Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [2003, Lawrence v. Texas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas) And Jayjay drops the mike and walks off the stage. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/122 "2018-01-05T19:09:30Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Nothing, if you live according to the bible. Jesus sat down and ate meals with the sinners of his time. If you forgive me for being bisexual, I’ll forgive you for being a Christian. O.K.? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/123 "2018-01-05T19:17:42Z")
Man, just reading ‘tolerance’ bothers me. It sounds so…reluctant. I tolerate the loud noise from my downstairs neighbor’s apartment. I tolerate our cold winters and 95 degree/99% humidity summer days. _I accept wholeheartedly_ that people have their own sexuality and it is really none of my damned business. After all, I don’t go around imagining people I meet or know having sex with each other like some people seem to do. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/124 "2018-01-05T19:27:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And Jayjay drops the mike and walks off the stage. To be honest, I kind of surprised myself. I knew the case, but I’d forgotten how recently it happened. I was thinking the 90s before I looked it up to make sure. It just seems astounding how late that was. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/125 "2018-01-05T19:33:05Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Man, just reading ‘tolerance’ bothers me. It sounds so…reluctant. > > I tolerate the loud noise from my downstairs neighbor’s apartment. > I tolerate our cold winters and 95 degree/99% humidity summer days. > > _I accept wholeheartedly_ that people have their own sexuality and it is really none of my damned business. After all, I don’t go around imagining people I meet or know having sex with each other like some people seem to do. :rolleyes: It says “I will put up with your kind because the law and/or society says I have to…but if either/both of these change, this “toleration” crap is going right out the window.” ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/126 "2018-01-05T20:46:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It says “I will put up with your kind because the law and/or society says I have to…but if either/both of these change, this “toleration” crap is going right out the window.” No, The idea is to love someone and allow God to change them. And your right it is tough when someone you love is doing something that is a sin. We have a relative who cheated on her husband leading to divorce yet we still accept her. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is the 8th commandment. Should we just rip that part of the Bible out because it doesnt suit us? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/127 "2018-01-05T20:59:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, The idea is to love someone and allow God to change them. > > And your right it is tough when someone you love is doing something that is a sin. We have a relative who cheated on her husband leading to divorce yet we still accept her. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is the 8th commandment. Should we just rip that part of the Bible out because it doesnt suit us? I don’t commit adultery. I am bisexual. It is what I am, as opposed to being Christian which is a decision you made that was influenced by where and how you were raised. Ready to be forgiven for your decision? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/128 "2018-01-05T21:02:11Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And your right it is tough when someone you love is doing something that is a sin. Putting words in my mouth then agreeing with those words instead of what I actually say is pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/129 "2018-01-05T21:24:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > To be honest, I kind of surprised myself. I knew the case, but I’d forgotten how recently it happened. I was thinking the 90s before I looked it up to make sure. It just seems astounding how late that was. Yep. Its pretty ridiculous isn’t it? In fact the ridiculousness of it is what made some people thing it was time to revisit our societal homophobia and dial it down a few notches. Now we just make them eat wedding cakes from gay friendly bakers. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/130 "2018-01-05T23:40:55Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, The idea is to love someone and allow God to change them. > > And your right it is tough when someone you love is doing something that is a sin. We have a relative who cheated on her husband leading to divorce yet we still accept her. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is the 8th commandment. Should we just rip that part of the Bible out because it doesnt suit us? “For we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. The entire first book of Romans is about not judging people. I sincerely wish Christians would read it and understand that it is speaking directly to each of us, including them. You’re a sinner too, Urbanredneck, so who are you to judge anyone? “Gosh, it’s tough when someone I love is sinning” is to ignore your own sins. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/131 "2018-01-06T00:24:12Z")
Planks and motes, yes, Christianity also points out such issues. But OTOH some here are also talking about whether what a particular church calls a sin or not should yield to the consensus of those outside that church. In any case most traditional churches would claim that they don’t consider \*being \*LGBT a sin, only acting upon it. Small consolation when you are not given the alternative that the cishet have, of sacramental marriage. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/132 "2018-01-06T02:57:00Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > In any case most traditional churches would claim that they don’t consider \*being \*LGBT a sin, only acting upon it. Yet the Roman Catholic Church still won’t ordain openly gay men, even if they stay celibate. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/133 "2018-01-06T05:55:10Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Yet the Roman Catholic Church still won’t ordain openly gay men, even if they stay celibate. I don’t think they ordain remarried divorced people either. Or even marry them again to begin with. I doubt they ordain someone convicted of murder and unrepentant, although they might marry them. It’s merely the fact that they see homosexual activity as inherent sinful that keeps them from being ordained, and most of that is out of a tradition of only married heterosexual couples being “allowed” to copulate and all other forms of sex banned. And that is almost certainly never going to change. It’s like suggesting that California should get more Senators because it has more people. It just isn’t going to happen without a huge overthrow of the whole system. But they are going to become more and more welcoming of homosexuals, as they are with any other people who have proclivities to sin. My mother and her “boyfriend” have prominent positions at their Catholic church even though they presumably take part in conduct that is immoral to the church. (They could even be married by the Church as they’re both widowed, but that’s rather unlikely for completely different reasons.) It’s just one of those things that people do, and it makes them come to church for forgiveness. The Church is being as open as they can be within the restrictions that have been set for them, much as we’ve been stuck with a President who didn’t win the Popular vote twice now in 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/134 "2018-01-06T07:44:41Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, The idea is to love someone and allow God to change them. > > And your right it is tough when someone you love is doing something that is a sin. We have a relative who cheated on her husband leading to divorce yet we still accept her. “Thou shalt not commit adultery” is the 8th commandment. Should we just rip that part of the Bible out because it doesnt suit us? You realize that unsanctioned adultery (really cheating on a partner) hurts someone while homosexuality does not. Where some churches exist on this spectrum I leave up to you. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/135 "2018-01-06T11:31:54Z")
> [@glowacks](#): > > I don’t think they ordain remarried divorced people either. Or even marry them again to begin with. That depends on which specific type of marriage we’re talking about. Letizia Ortiz’s very short-lived first marriage was civil-only: it was never canonically recognized. In fact, it wasn’t even civilly-recognized by the Spanish government, only by Mexico, as the first husband and her filed for divorce before they’d filed for civil recognition with the Spanish government. Her second marriage, recognized both in the RCC and by Spanish civil law, eventually made her Queen Consort of Spain. And someone who’s had one canonic annullment can remarry in the Church; on the other hand, getting a third church wedding when your first marriage was annulled due to “immaturity of the bride” and your second due to “the wife doesn’t consider marriage to be forever” is unlikely, as Isabel Preysler found out. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/136 "2018-01-06T14:58:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t commit adultery. I am bisexual. It is what I am, as opposed to being Christian which is a decision you made that was influenced by where and how you were raised. > Ready to be forgiven for your decision? So what other sins should we accept? Look, the question is, do you want to be a Christian or not? If so there are rules laid down 2,000 years ago that we as believers, decide to follow. Now as a mentioned before, we once had a lesbian couple in my old church, one of them wanted to be a christian, the other did not. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/137 "2018-01-06T15:03:27Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > “For we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. > > The entire first book of Romans is about not judging people. I sincerely wish Christians would read it and understand that it is speaking directly to each of us, including them. > > You’re a sinner too, Urbanredneck, so who are you to judge anyone? > > “Gosh, it’s tough when someone I love is sinning” is to ignore your own sins. Yes, I am a sinner. I deal with alot of temptations everyday to fall back into some old ways. I sometimes fall. But I ask Jesus for forgiveness. As for judging, I dont think I judged anyone. If a gay person who really gets into it, reads their bible, prays and studies on it, and honestly feels that they can be a Christian AND homosexual, well I’m ok with that. Have you done this? Have you prayed and really spent some quality time with your Bible and on your knees asking God if this is right? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/138 "2018-01-06T15:31:37Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Have you prayed and really spent some quality time with your Bible and on your knees asking God if this is right? Have you? Did he answer? Do you claim to know what god wants? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/139 "2018-01-06T15:40:44Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Look, the question is, do you want to be a Christian or not? If so there are rules laid down 2,000 years ago that we as believers, decide to follow. The Bible is not and has never been an instruction manual. **My** god is not evil; thus, homosexuality and homosexual relationships are not inherently sinful. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/140 "2018-01-06T15:42:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Which group, via television, radio and the internet, has possession of the megaphone right now? Unfortunately, this IS the metric. And after the midterm elections, the answer may well change 180º. If it does, the larger discussion here won’t change. Some churches are embracing of LGBTQ people, many still won’t be. FORTUNATELY, that ole First Amendment forges on no matter who has the megaphone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=8)