# LGBT Tolerance in Religious America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782 "2018-01-03T03:03:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/141 "2018-01-06T15:43:37Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Look, the question is, do you want to be a Christian or not? If so there are rules laid down 2,000 years ago that we as believers, decide to follow. Rule #1: _ **GOD IS LOVE.** _ 1 John 4:8 — _Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love._ ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/142 "2018-01-06T15:47:34Z")
Oh, also… When Jesus was asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” He replied… (from Mark, chapter 12) > [@](#): > > 29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 **Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’** There is no commandment greater than these.” ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/143 "2018-01-06T16:11:32Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Look, the question is, do you want to be a Christian or not? If so there are rules laid down 2,000 years ago that we as believers, decide to follow. And of course, those rules are many, often unclear, and sometimes contradictory. You, as a Christian, pick and choose which rules out of the Bible to follow, and how to follow them. Other Christians do the same…and they may not make the same choices you make. But you know that already, right? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/144 "2018-01-06T16:15:34Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > If a gay person who really gets into it, reads their bible, prays and studies on it, and honestly feels that they can be a Christian AND homosexual, well I’m ok with that. The problem with this is that it implies that homosexuality is something that a person could conceivably repent of and give up, like adultery. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/145 "2018-01-06T16:46:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Have you? Did he answer? Do you claim to know what god wants? How you divine the will of God says more about the state of your soul than it does about God’s will. I doubt God sees a compassionate, generous, non-hedonistic homosexual worse than a callous, selfish, womanizer. And churches are fucking filled with the latter. If churches are supposed to be hospitals for the soul and you think homosexuality is a sin, you should be out there recruiting the homosexuals like churches recruit the prostitutes, pimps and addicts. That’s what they do right? Proselytize to the prostitutes, pimps, addicts, criminals, etc. Amirite? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/146 "2018-01-06T16:47:38Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The Bible is not and has never been an instruction manual. **My** god is not evil; thus, homosexuality and homosexual relationships are not inherently sinful. Parts of it are. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/147 "2018-01-06T16:49:30Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Oh, also… > > When Jesus was asked, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” > > He replied… (from Mark, chapter 12) Those are sometimes presented as two sides of the same coin. If you can’t love others you can’t love God. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/148 "2018-01-06T17:12:10Z")
Eleven times the bible tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves, or words to that effect. As **Bullitt** pointed out above. And my personal favorite verse; 1 John 4:20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. To which I would add; If you hate another because of his sins, you cannot love yourself, as you are also a sinner. Nor can you love God, who commanded us to love one another without judgement. Look, you don’t have to like what anyone else does. You don’t. But if you choose hate, if you choose anger, if you choose to oppress others because they break one commandment while you break a different one, then you’re making a bad choice and you’re disobeying God and Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/149 "2018-01-06T17:19:03Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So what other sins should we accept? > > Look, the question is, do you want to be a Christian or not? If so there are rules laid down 2,000 years ago that we as believers, decide to follow. Now as a mentioned before, we once had a lesbian couple in my old church, one of them wanted to be a christian, the other did not. This is much less a matter of us wanting to belong to your church, and much more a matter of of self-appointed spokesmen decrying our sinfulness, then using the power of the bully pulpit to stop the advancement of rights and even the rollback of rights hard fought for. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and there is a fuckload of rats squeaking right now. BTW, I wouldn’t mind seeing a list of other large groups you oh-so-graciously “tolerate”. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/150 "2018-01-06T18:09:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Have you? Did he answer? Do you claim to know what god wants? Yes, yes and yes. The Lord wants, much like Unca Cecil, for us not be jerks. He may want other things of you personally. You’d have to ask Him yourself. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/151 "2018-01-06T18:14:04Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Yes, yes and yes. > > The Lord wants, much like Unca Cecil, for us not be jerks. He may want other things of you personally. You’d have to ask Him yourself. Which god? How do you know, especially when he says different things to different people? If he doesn’t answer, how do you know? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/152 "2018-01-06T18:22:56Z")
…On second thought… never mind, **DocCathode**. I don’t want to derail this into another theist vs. atheist argument. I think we can all agree that the Golden Rule is a good idea. The rest is commentary. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/153 "2018-01-06T23:44:55Z")
Clobber passages notwithstanding, the Bible isn’t especially focused on homosexuality one way or another. And there are a boatload of red letter passages in the New Testament telling the pious not to be dicks. If a Christian says, “Yeah, I admit you’re doing no harm, but you are sinning nonetheless”, they should look a little deeper into their souls. Because the clobber passages were written at a time when homosexuality typically involved exploitative behaviors. They were reasonable in their time, less so now. And there aren’t that many of them, nor are they really that conclusive for those who don’t follow Jewish law. Those who claim that Jewish law exists for all time under all circumstance are making an extra-Biblical argument. That’s fine actually: just say so. Homosexuality is peripheral to the Word. I can understand those who argue that it’s frowned upon in the Bible. But honestly, this simply isn’t a slam dunk: if it was Jesus would have mentioned it now and then, as opposed to defending eunichs as humans who are simply born the way they are. Jesus understood that this sort of moral understanding wouldn’t make him popular: he _repeatedly_ said things like, “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.” He _repeatedly_ enjoined upon his followers to raise their moral bar, to extend their moral horizon. And he repeatedly denounced the religious who focused on rules and rituals, while neglecting basic human decency. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/154 "2018-01-07T01:26:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Parts of it are. Parts of it are … what? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/155 "2018-01-07T04:16:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How you divine the will of God says more about the state of your soul than it does about God’s will. > > I doubt God sees a compassionate, generous, non-hedonistic homosexual worse than a callous, selfish, womanizer. And churches are fucking filled with the latter. > > If churches are supposed to be hospitals for the soul and you think homosexuality is a sin, you should be out there recruiting the homosexuals like churches recruit the prostitutes, pimps and addicts. That’s what they do right? Proselytize to the prostitutes, pimps, addicts, criminals, etc. Amirite? How do you know all these things? Are you a Christian? From the language you use “churches are fucking filled with the latter.” I doubt it. If so, what church do you attend? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/156 "2018-01-07T04:21:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Clobber passages notwithstanding, the Bible isn’t especially focused on homosexuality one way or another. And there are a boatload of red letter passages in the New Testament telling the pious not to be dicks. > > If a Christian says, “Yeah, I admit you’re doing no harm, but you are sinning nonetheless”, they should look a little deeper into their souls. Because the clobber passages were written at a time when homosexuality typically involved exploitative behaviors. They were reasonable in their time, less so now. And there aren’t that many of them, nor are they really that conclusive for those who don’t follow Jewish law. > > Those who claim that Jewish law exists for all time under all circumstance are making an extra-Biblical argument. That’s fine actually: just say so. > > Homosexuality is peripheral to the Word. I can understand those who argue that it’s frowned upon in the Bible. But honestly, this simply isn’t a slam dunk: if it was Jesus would have mentioned it now and then, as opposed to defending eunichs as humans who are simply born the way they are. > > Jesus understood that this sort of moral understanding wouldn’t make him popular: he _repeatedly_ said things like, “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.” He _repeatedly_ enjoined upon his followers to raise their moral bar, to extend their moral horizon. And he repeatedly denounced the religious who focused on rules and rituals, while neglecting basic human decency. The bible also says in 2nd Timothy 4:2-3 “2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” NIV Plus it also says in 2nd Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," So I dont see it is wrong to discuss scripture. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/157 "2018-01-07T04:42:36Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > How do you know all these things? > > Are you a Christian? > > From the language you use “churches are fucking filled with the latter.” I doubt it. > > If so, what church do you attend? Oh, taking the Churchly high road, are we?? Got three words for you. Bernard Cardinal Law. And no, the name of my church is none of your business. Doesn’t mean I’m not a Christian. Just means that I’m no fool. Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/158 "2018-01-07T05:34:40Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The bible also says in 2nd Timothy 4:2-3 “2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” NIV > > Plus it also says in 2nd Timothy 3:16 " All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," > > So I dont see it is wrong to discuss scripture. I’m honesty unclear on how you concluded that I think it’s wrong to discuss scripture. Heck, I was discussing scripture. Though I’ll add that discussions should include the underlying context, if only for historical setting. 2 Timothy was written by Paul at a time near his death, when many of his friends had abandoned him. Paul’s endorsement of scripture reflects the fact that he never renounced his Judaism. None of those passages imply that Christians need to follow Jewish Law - though if you want to argue otherwise, that’s fine with me. Frankly when I see folk sanctimoniously quote Leviticus yet wear cloth of more than one color thread (picking and choosing what commands to abide by), I like it. For I appreciate knowing that they are fond of using scripture to bash others – without taking it especially seriously themselves. To be fair, I didn’t see you do that. But we both know it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/159 "2018-01-07T15:52:16Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Oh, taking the Churchly high road, are we?? > > Got three words for you. > > Bernard Cardinal Law Bernard _ **Francis** _ Law. Asshole. So what? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782/160 "2018-01-07T16:02:37Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Bernard _ **Francis** _ Law. Asshole. So what? Just wondering whether he made it to heaven or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lgbt-tolerance-in-religious-america/805782.md?page=9)