# Libel and Infamous Characters: Liability? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 19, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277 "2009-10-19T03:08:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/1 "2009-10-19T03:08:31Z")
If I were to write a book, and have, say, Sirhan Sirhan, or Charles Manson in it, and make them child molesters, what is my liability? I know that they can’t really suffer any financial loss due to my work, and their reputations can’t be hurt too badly, but, do they still have legal grounds for which to sue me? Thanks, hh ---
**Author:** ![Jerseyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbce88/32.png) [@Jerseyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerseyman)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/2 "2009-10-19T03:42:10Z")
Of course they do. They have the same rights as anybody else to claim against lies, whatever else they may have done. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/3 "2009-10-19T11:57:15Z")
This doesn’t seem to be about any particular Staff Report, so I’m moving it to the General Questions forum, where I think you’ll get more replies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/4 "2009-10-19T12:49:31Z")
One noteworthy case along these lines involved Meyer Levin’s book _Compulsion_ (about [the Leopold and Loeb murder case](http://www.albany.edu/writers-inst/webpages4/filmnotes/fnf00n2.html)), later made into a movie. Nathan Leopold, who was angry over his portrayal as a sexual deviate, sued Levin and Darryl Zanuck, producer of the movie, in a case that dragged through the courts for years (and supposedly cost Levin a large sum in book royalties). Eventually the courts ruled he was a public figure and the suit was tossed out. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/5 "2009-10-19T14:27:26Z")
Expanding on **Kackmanii** ’s point a bit – “public figures” (i.e., persons known to the general public, celebrities) are also able to sue for libel – but the burden of proof is a great deal higher than for the average generally-unknown private individual. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/6 "2009-10-19T15:48:38Z")
Tangentially related, but not in US law, Stalin’s grandson recently sued a Russian newspaper (in Russia) for smearing his grandparent’s name, after the paper claimed that he had personally ordered the killings of thousands of citizens. That case was thrown out of court and not entertained. [http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/10/13/world/international-uk-russia-stalin.html](http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2009/10/13/world/international-uk-russia-stalin.html) So it should be quite safe to have him in your book :). ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/7 "2009-10-19T16:17:18Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Expanding on **Kackmanii** ’s point a bit – “public figures” (i.e., persons known to the general public, celebrities) are also able to sue for libel – but the burden of proof is a great deal higher than for the average generally-unknown private individual. **Jackmanii** ’s :o I hate typoes! ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/8 "2009-10-19T16:25:36Z")
Since both Sirhan and Manson are currently in prison in California, you might want to read up on that state’s [publicity and privacy rights laws](http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=5609) to see what they say about using any person’s name or likeness for commercial purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/9 "2009-10-19T17:07:59Z")
But even if they successfuly sued, they would only be able to collect actual damages and it is hard to see how they could suffer any losses. Be careful not to allow your book to be sold in Britain, since the British libel laws are such that you basicaly can’t say anything negative against anybody, even if you could absolutely prove it true. Truth is no defense against libel in Britain and US courts are expected to enforce libel decisions against American residents (although I think they have been increasingly reluctant to do so). ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/10 "2009-10-19T17:58:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Expanding on **Kackmanii** ’s point a bit – “public figures” (i.e., persons known to the general public, celebrities) are also able to sue for libel – but the burden of proof is a great deal higher than for the average generally-unknown private individual. More to the point, a ‘public figure’ would have to show not only that the information was defamatory, but that you either intended ‘actual malice’ or total disregard for the truth in the statement. The poor reputation is something of a defense with regard to the damage done to the person. There’s also the question of what sort of book you’re writing. If it’s obvious fiction you might have an easier time defending it than if you claimed it to be describing actual events. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/11 "2009-10-19T18:30:04Z")
There’s a common legal principle in libel that I forget the name of. As I read it, if you are close, you are OK. For example, if you call someone a horse thief and he turns out have only stolen the saddle, he has no grounds to sue. Not sure how this works out with child molestation. Given today’s climate, that offense appears to be a huge step worse than simply assasinating the leading candidate for president, or jamming a fork in a pregnant woman’s stomach before you murder her. I think that’s the same principle as the Stalin lawsuit; he ordered so many people killed, that if he did it for one, or for a group, what difference if he did or did not for a few million? How much worse can you make his reputation? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/12 "2009-10-20T03:17:11Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > This doesn’t seem to be about any particular Staff Report, so I’m moving it to the General Questions forum, where I think you’ll get more replies. Thanks, **Dex**! For the life of me I can’t figure out what I was doing in Staff Reports, and I was wondering where my post had gone! hh ---
**Author:** ![jock123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@jock123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jock123)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-and-infamous-characters-liability/514277/13 "2009-10-21T18:03:31Z")
[California the latest state to pass a law opposing British libel judgments](http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2009/oct/15/medialaw-usa) Just out of interest, in re: using real people in fictional books, has J.D. Salinger ever taken action/ commented on his portrayal in _Shoeless Joe_, by Ray Kinsella (later the film _Field of Dreams_)? It is almost the inverse of the original questioner’s example - he is notoriously grumpy and somewhat eccentric in real life, but is portrayed as rather endearing and perfectly normal in the book… I know J.D.S. never says much to anyone, but could Kinsella be had up for polishing, rather than tarnishing his image?