# Libel? Slander? Or just 'welcome to the 21st century'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096 "2010-05-28T18:27:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/1 "2010-05-28T18:27:49Z")
I read about [this case](http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/michigan-towing-company-sues-student-750k-facebook-page/story?id=10763142) this morning: > [@](#): > > Since January, a Facebook page created by a Western Michigan University student for Kalamazoo residents to complain about a local towing company has swelled to more than 12,000 members. Now, the company, T & J Towing, is suing the student for $750,000, saying the “libelous and slanderous” site is causing it to lose income. I was wondering what people think about the merits of the suit (personally, I don’t think they ever thought they’d win, I think they thought they’d use the courts to threaten the kid), and what people might think about this being a precursor to a trend. I know we’ve seen other internet campaigns against companies, people, etc. before, but with social networking sites, anyone can set up a clearinghouse for information that can disseminate the information _instantly_ to anyone else, worldwide, who wants it. Campaigns thus are, IMO, going to be able to stay focused, and stay tightly focused on their goals. And their going to be able to garner support like never before. I have a hard time imagining that in 1990 I’d have ever heard about 1 college kid in Kalamazoo’s car being towed; now it’s just a click away. Is, or will, this be seen as a net positive or negative to our (slowly) emerging global society? Will it help foment or obstruct change? Personally, I think it rocks. It’s the information age equivalent of a gun: it helps level the playing field so that the strong can’t as easily prey on the weak. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/2 "2010-05-28T18:37:59Z")
Calling lawyers - please tell me whether the kid is liable for the accuracy of content created by others that ends up displayed on his site. Begin truthful is a defense against libel and slander (and since when can you be both at once?), but supposing somebody else posted lies about the company on his site, would he be in some way liable? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/3 "2010-05-28T18:42:31Z")
I can just see a company anonymously planting easily disprovable stories on such a website, then suing to shut it down. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/4 "2010-05-28T18:42:35Z")
If Justin and others who post on his Facebook page are lying, then of course the tow truck company should win. But how do you prove it. And with so many people commenting it’s hard to say if they’re legitimate gripes or people jumping on a bandwagon. And sure, there should be protection for the little guy, but then again it’s easy to have a bunch of people make false allegations against good company too. With that many people complaining it seems like there might be something to it. But then again it could be mob mentality where everybody is just going along. Who knows. ---
**Author:** ![In\_Winnipeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a8b319/32.png) [@In\_Winnipeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/In_Winnipeg)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/5 "2010-05-28T18:45:41Z")
You know, I’m thinking that if he his own account about any problems he had with this company first, and then had a disclaimer that the posters themselves that follow are solely responsible for what they write and that any readers can make their own mind up about what they wish to believe, then I don’t feel that any libel (published on the internet) exists. At the end of the day, it’s probably Facebook that would make the decision to let the page stay or pull the plug on it. There are whole websites out there that have to do with consumers’ opinions of companies and services, for example, Yelp. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/6 "2010-05-28T19:37:01Z")
I could be wrong here, but IIRC, a forum-type website is only itself liable for libel or slander if they moderate or edit the forums. A forum that just allows people to post without exercising editorial control has no liability for the comments of individuals posters, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/7 "2010-05-28T20:16:03Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I could be wrong here, but IIRC, a forum-type website is only itself liable for libel or slander if they moderate or edit the forums. A forum that just allows people to post without exercising editorial control has no liability for the comments of individuals posters, AFAIK. My understanding is this: if the site is a passive conduit for information with no knowledge of what is being posted or control over what is posted, they have no liability at all. _However_, even if a forum _is_ moderated or edited, it is generally still not liable for defamatory posts. The mods discuss this topic about once a year because the non-lawyers among us have trouble keeping the details straight. If you mention it around **Gfactor** his eye twitches a little. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/8 "2010-05-28T20:17:08Z")
Oh, Americans and their lawsuits! Always worth a chuckle! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/9 "2010-05-28T20:31:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I was wondering what people think about the merits of the suit (personally, I don’t think they ever thought they’d win, I think they thought they’d use the courts to threaten the kid), and what people might think about this being a precursor to a trend. I think it’s a nuisance lawsuit that they should not win, and probably will not. The towing company sounds like a shitty business. > [@](#): > > Campaigns thus are, IMO, going to be able to stay focused, and stay tightly focused on their goals. And their going to be able to garner support like never before. I have a hard time imagining that in 1990 I’d have ever heard about 1 college kid in Kalamazoo’s car being towed; now it’s just a click away. They can get all kinds of attention, but the bigger a group or movement gets, the harder it is to stay focused. Honestly, unless you’re in the Kalamazoo area, it doesn’t matter very much if you hear about this guy and click ‘Like.’ It matters if they lose potential customers and get a bad reputation, though. For a larger business, a nationwide Facebook campaign would be more of an issue because they have more to lose. Broad support for a campaign against a local business might not matter, but the potential of news coverage for the campaign does matter. > [@](#): > > Is, or will, this be seen as a net positive or negative to our (slowly) emerging global society? Will it help foment or obstruct change? Does it have to be just one? I think we’ve seen a lot of what social networks and online campaigns can do, and the responses they can get. We also know it can be used for astroturfing and similar things. > [@](#): > > It’s the information age equivalent of a gun: it helps level the playing field so that the strong can’t as easily prey on the weak. In some ways, yes. In others I think it gets used the same way any other tool does. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/10 "2010-05-28T20:53:09Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Oh, Americans and their lawsuits! Always worth a chuckle! 🙂 Actually, the last thread was about stupid _British_ law that encouraged this sort of lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/11 "2010-05-28T22:37:33Z")
One thing is for certain, it is not slander, which has a [precise legal definition](http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1969): > [@](#): > > slander > n. **oral defamation** , in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another, which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed. Slander is a civil wrong (tort) and can be the basis for a lawsuit. Damages (payoff for worth) for slander may be limited to actual (special) damages unless there is malicious intent, since such damages are usually difficult to specify and harder to prove. Some statements, such as an untrue accusation of having committed a crime, having a loathsome disease or being unable to perform one’s occupation, are treated as slander per se since the harm and malice are obvious and therefore usually result in general and even punitive damage recovery by the person harmed. Words spoken over the air on television or radio are treated as libel (written defamation) and not slander on the theory that broadcasting reaches a large audience as much as if not more than printed publications. Since the statements in question were posted on a website and not oral utterances, no slander exists. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/12 "2010-05-28T22:42:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > My understanding is this: if the site is a passive conduit for information with no knowledge of what is being posted or control over what is posted, they have no liability at all. _However_, even if a forum _is_ moderated or edited, it is generally still not liable for defamatory posts. Thanks for the clarification. I’m glad to see I had half of it right, even if I did ignore the other half completely. 😛 > [@Marley23](#): > > The mods discuss this topic about once a year because the non-lawyers among us have trouble keeping the details straight. If you mention it around **Gfactor** his eye twitches a little. You owe me a soda and my cat now needs a bath. ---
**Author:** ![DadWagonDriver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/edb3f5/32.png) [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/13 "2010-05-28T23:30:26Z")
I can’t add to the debate, but this story makes me smile. That towing company has been scummy for a long, long time. I went to WMU (duh, username) and heard stories about them every week in class. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/14 "2010-05-29T00:36:26Z")
This letter spells out most of the details of the relevant defamation law: [https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B77l4lqiR0CuZDEwZDczMzMtNzAwZC00Mjc2LThiMjgtNjdjMDg1YzVmNTkz&hl=en](https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B77l4lqiR0CuZDEwZDczMzMtNzAwZC00Mjc2LThiMjgtNjdjMDg1YzVmNTkz&hl=en) This discussion review most of the cases on message board liability: [California Supreme Court Affirms Broad Immunity for Defamatory Republication on the Internet | The IP Law Blog](http://www.theiplawblog.com/archives/-cyberspace-law-california-supreme-court-affirms-broad-immunity-for-defamatory-republication-on-the-internet.html) This is a more general discussion that covers both topics: [Online Defamation Law | Electronic Frontier Foundation](http://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation) > [@](#): > > The vast weight of authority has held that Section 230 precludes liability for an intermediary’s distribution of defamation \*Id. \* ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/15 "2010-05-29T00:42:06Z")
How’s that eye, **Gfactor**? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libel-slander-or-just-welcome-to-the-21st-century/541096/16 "2010-05-29T06:31:33Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > How’s that eye, **Gfactor**? 😃 🙂 :dubious: 😉 :dubious: 🙂 :dubious: 🙂 CMC fnord!