# Liberal administration denies FEMA assistance to conservative locale: Ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2011, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727 "2011-10-25T11:24:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/21 "2011-10-25T15:10:15Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Fine. Hold up the money to his district until we can figure out which teachers to fire before we help them out. Happy with that solution? > > Or should FEMA just operate as it’s intended to. I already stated my position in post #8. What is yours? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/22 "2011-10-25T15:12:39Z")
Giving assistance to conservative locales would serve as an object lesson as to why federal agencies are good and important things to have. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/23 "2011-10-25T15:29:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I already stated my position in post #8. What is yours? That Cantor wanting to withhold FEMA money from people who need it while he scrubs the numbers and makes partisan speeches about it makes him an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/24 "2011-10-25T15:31:22Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Can they instead just assume all of their taxes are going toward FEMA? Whatever floats their boat. Doesn’t mean any of it make sense in the big picture – as was my point – but shit, they can assume it all goes toward giving welfare queens new Cadillacs for all I care. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/25 "2011-10-25T15:31:37Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > That Cantor wanting to withhold FEMA money from people who need it while he scrubs the numbers and makes partisan speeches about it makes him an asshole. For what it’s worth, I do agree with that. But it just dodges the question. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/26 "2011-10-25T15:41:34Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Whatever floats their boat. Doesn’t mean any of it make sense in the big picture – as was my point – but shit, they can assume it all goes toward giving welfare queens new Cadillacs for all I care. So let’s figure they merely assume _ **some** _ of their money is going towards FEMA, and they (a) would love to get _ **that** _ money back, since they didn’t want to hand it over in the first place; but also (b) wouldn’t mind getting the FEMA benefits they were required to fund – because, hey, if I force you to buy a stock you think is a bad investment, should I at least give you a share in exchange for your cash? Or should I, failing that, give you a refund? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/27 "2011-10-25T15:42:42Z")
I’m not trying to dodge anything. Here’s the thing … what I just said about Cantor holds true (in my opinion); and if he (or ‘people like him’) doesn’t float the same rationale/rhetoric about his own constituents when the need arises, then he’s a hypocrite too. Again – I don’t think FEMA should consider anything political when it comes to doling out the funds, but it seems people like Cantor have already done that, and when they get hoist on their own petards, it only further illustrates their inherrent assholishness. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/28 "2011-10-25T15:45:24Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’m not trying to dodge anything. > > Here’s the thing … what I just said about Cantor holds true (in my opinion); and if he (or ‘people like him’) doesn’t float the same rationale/rhetoric about his own constituents when the need arises, then he’s a hypocrite too. If I steal your wallet and play the lottery with the dollars inside, are you a hypocrite for (a) being against me stealing your wallet, and (b) wanting either the lottery winnings, or at least those dollars back? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/29 "2011-10-25T15:45:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So let’s figure they merely assume _ **some** _ of their money is going towards FEMA, and they (a) would love to get _ **that** _ money back, since they didn’t want to hand it over in the first place; but also (b) wouldn’t mind getting the FEMA benefits they were required to fund – because, hey, if I force you to buy a stock you think is a bad investment, should I at least give you a share in exchange for your cash? Or should I, failing that, give you a refund? We’re just getting ridiculous now. FEMA is funded by taxes for a specific purpose. When that purpose arises, people in need get the benefit. Talk of ‘getting back what I paid in’ is as riduculous as claiming Social Security is nothing but a savings account ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/30 "2011-10-25T15:48:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If I steal your wallet and play the lottery with the dollars inside, are you a hypocrite for (a) being against me stealing your wallet, and (b) wanting either the lottery winnings, or at least those dollars back? If I paint you kitchen pink and then take your grandmother to the fair and buy her a funnel cake shaped like Spiro Agnew, will you (a) bury a turnip in the back yard at midnight, or (b) intentionally walk the elephant to get the rhino? In other words … what the hell are you talking about? No one is stealing anything from anybody. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/31 "2011-10-25T15:51:51Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > We’re just getting ridiculous now. FEMA is funded by taxes for a specific purpose. When that purpose arises, people in need get the benefit. Talk of ‘getting back what I paid in’ is as riduculous as claiming Social Security is nothing but a savings account You’re saying they’re hypocrites for wanting the benefits they funded; I’m saying there’s nothing hypocritical about (a) wanting to end both the funding and the benefits, but (b) wanting the benefits they funded. There’s nothing wrong with saying _“I’d rather get nothing, and not pay in; but so long as I’m forced to pay in, I should get something.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/32 "2011-10-25T19:30:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You’re saying they’re hypocrites for wanting the benefits they funded; I’m saying there’s nothing hypocritical about (a) wanting to end both the funding and the benefits, but (b) wanting the benefits they funded. There’s nothing wrong with saying _“I’d rather get nothing, and not pay in; but so long as I’m forced to pay in, I should get something.”_ This is a fair summation of why it’s silly to talk about being retributive against people who want to lower taxes and services by withholding services. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/33 "2011-10-25T21:18:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is it ethical to without aid from people because of their political beliefs? Of course not, and I would hope this was about as debatable as “Is it o.k. to kill puppies and kittens if their owners refuse to donate to the ASPCA?”. It is ethical to withold aid from people who profess to be against it. To put it another way, if I were a doctor, I would treat anyone who came to me for help. Doesn’t matter if you’re a rich or poor, good or bad, black or white. But if someone comes who’s made it their life’s work to speak out against doctors (preferring, for example, faith healing) and how we’re all quacks or evil, but now needed me for something only medical science could cure, I would sleep well knowing that I had rejected him. Something about the hypocrisy of that person just bugs me on a level that I cannot describe. Perhaps because I can conceive of myself as evil someday, or poor or rich, or in want, given circumstances, but not sink so low as to speak with a forked tongue one thing while praising the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/34 "2011-10-25T21:20:59Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It is ethical to withold aid from people who profess to be against it. > > To put it another way, if I were a doctor, I would treat anyone who came to me for help. Doesn’t matter if you’re a rich or poor, good or bad, black or white. But if someone comes who’s made it their life’s work to speak out against doctors (preferring, for example, faith healing) and how we’re all quacks or evil, but now needed me for something only medical science could cure, I would sleep well knowing that I had rejected him. Something about the hypocrisy of that person just bugs me on a level that I cannot describe. Perhaps because I can conceive of myself as evil someday, or poor or rich, or in want, given circumstances, but not sink so low as to speak with a forked tongue one thing while praising the opposite. Firstly, you’d be violating the Hippocratic Oath as a doctor. Secondly, the context of this thread is that we’re talking about government agents, not private parties. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/35 "2011-10-25T21:23:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It is ethical to withold aid from people who profess to be against it. Not if you’re still charging them for it. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/36 "2011-10-25T23:21:23Z")
Our hypothetical congresspeople had no problem allowing other countrymen to potentially suffer while waiting for Hurricane Irene aid. And those people also paid into the system. It is evil to punish everyone for the actions of their leadership. But I’m not buying the “they paid in, so they should get help” argument. Unless we’re talking about exact compensation that they “paid in”. As in, 0.001% of the average person’s income tax goes to FEMA, so that’s what they get back (just making up a figure). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/37 "2011-10-26T01:00:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This is a hypothetical inspired by what is happening here in VA. Louisa County, the epicenter of that East coast earthquake that happened this summer, has been turned down for [requested](http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/oct/24/louisa-quake-donations-coming-recipients-could-be--ar-1407303/) FEMA assistance. > > It’s hypothetical because 1) I don’t know Louisa County’s politics and 2) it is not clear to me why their request has been turned down. It could be due to perfectly justifiable, non-political reasons. I don’t know. > > But let’s say that Louisa County was ultra-Tea Party country, represented by congresspeople like [Eric Cantor](http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0811/62395.html) who have gone on record for their negative views about FEMA and federal aid. > > Would it be unethical for the administration to give these people the finger? Or does it have a responsibility to them regardless of their political views and contradictory behavior? > > (I say the latter because it’s the “right” thing to do. But I do like the message that the former sends. I suppose that makes me evil.) Decency is most strongly demonstrated when it isn’t returned. If Eric Cantor’s district is helped by FEMA it’s going to put a sour taste in their mouth when the traitorous Republican mouth breather runs his selfish, and evil pie hole against it. What an evil, sleezy fuck. Holding money for disaster relief hostage for political gain. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/38 "2011-10-26T01:10:59Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But I’m not buying the “they paid in, so they should get help” argument. Unless we’re talking about exact compensation that they “paid in”. As in, 0.001% of the average person’s income tax goes to FEMA, so that’s what they get back Sure, but the government is refusing to hand even _ **that** _ over – but will be demanding payment again next year. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/39 "2011-10-26T01:20:20Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Decency is most strongly demonstrated when it isn’t returned. If Eric Cantor’s district is helped by FEMA it’s going to put a sour taste in their mouth when the traitorous Republican mouth breather runs his selfish, and evil pie hole against it. > > What an evil, sleezy fuck. Holding money for disaster relief hostage for political gain. Actually, I need to tell myself off. Reading the first link, and rereading the OP it seems this isn’t a hypothetical at all. FEMA withheld actual funds. This doesn’t look ethical to me at all. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727/40 "2011-10-26T02:18:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Sure, but the government is refusing to hand even _ **that** _ over – but will be demanding payment again next year. So you’re saying that if the Feds gave the earth quake victims checks for $1000 each and then announced FEMA was shutting down, there would be no ethical problems here? And no complaining and/or whining? What I want to know is (moving out of the hypothetical realm and into reality)…these people are begging the federal government for help, but totally giving the state a pass. Even though, unlike the federal government, the state is running a surplus. At least, I haven’t heard anyone here complaining about how the state is being stingy. Not in person or in the news (though I don’t live in Louisa). Seems to me that if the people have a problem with no-account gubmint, they should be looking close to home, not at Washington. They pay state income and sales taxes (and property taxes, too). The state is actually more beholdin’ to them than the federal government is. But for some reason, I think we shall hear nary o’ peep from Cantor and company about this neglect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-administration-denies-fema-assistance-to-conservative-locale-ethical/600727.md?page=3)