# Liberal (American) dopers, a question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 12, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845 "2010-12-12T02:32:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/101 "2010-12-15T19:55:34Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I do get it. Please explain your solution and how it will not have any undesired counter-effects, and how it could survive a SCOTUS challenge. Oh, well, I didn’t understand that your objection was pragmatic. There is no way to get a workable solution past John Roberts. So our solution is to restart the labor revolution in this country, treating the courts & the mainstream press as fundamentally hostile. It will be a fight beyond imagining, but it has been done before. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/102 "2010-12-15T19:58:12Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Oh, well, I didn’t understand that your objection was pragmatic. > > There is no way to get a workable solution past John Roberts. So our solution is to restart the labor revolution in this country, treating the courts & the mainstream press as fundamentally hostile. It will be a fight beyond imagining, but it has been done before. It’s not just Roberts, its the 1st Amendment. But you seem to agree that the failure of people to exercise their rights is part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/103 "2010-12-15T20:35:28Z")
The primal dominance of the Apathy Party. The Number Two threat to the Republic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/104 "2010-12-15T20:44:19Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Oh, well, I didn’t understand that your objection was pragmatic. > > There is no way to get a workable solution past John Roberts. So our solution is to restart the labor revolution in this country, treating the courts & the mainstream press as fundamentally hostile. It will be a fight beyond imagining, but it has been done before. That can happen, but not without a real left-populist insurgency – like the Tea Party movement but LW and class-conscious. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/105 "2010-12-15T22:00:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > California had free colleges for many years. it was a huge success with people from all over the country moving there. Silicon Valley and other highly technical businesses were the result. Reagan became governor and ended that. > College is a very lucrative business now. Costs are skyrocketing . Easy money. Someone found a way to make a decent profit off of education and they did it. Are you supposing we take that opportunity away? Would you be glad then when the entire education system collapses because no one of any reasonable level of competence wants to be involved anymore? The opposite of skyrocketing college costs is not necessarily cheaper education. It could mean nothing at all. Have you asked yourself where we would get the money to pay taxes to support free colleges? The rich people who could afford those heavy taxes would simply leave. Would the working class be able, much less willing, to shoulder the burden? Nope, they’d leave, too. What we should do is eliminate state funding for colleges and let people pay their own way. The people who can afford it can support the system. College isn’t for everyone; there is a such thing as going to a trade school or… _gasp_ learning a skill in high school and starting your own business! Immigrants come here and get rich all the time. What is wrong with us natural-born American citizens that we can’t? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/106 "2010-12-15T22:14:53Z")
And where, perzackly, are these rich emigres going to go? Randesia? Great Galtistan? ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/107 "2010-12-15T22:23:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And where, perzackly, are these rich emigres going to go? Randesia? Great Galtistan? They’ll go to other states with lower taxes. And if you’re rich you can leave the country, too. There are plenty of good places for the rich to retire. You’d be surprised at how happy the poor in those countries would be to be their maids and gardeners. A day’s pay doing that would feed their whole family for a week, lol. We Americans expect to have too many things handed to us. Immigrants come here and bust their butts in the hot sun for what they get, that’s why they’re so successful. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/108 "2010-12-15T22:26:48Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > We Americans expect to have too many things handed to us. Immigrants come here and bust their butts in the hot sun for what they get, that’s why they’re so successful. Your getting your right wing propoganda mixed up (amazing because of its logical consistency:rolleyes:). Immigrants that come here without degrees aren’t supposed to be successful and we’re not supposed to want them. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/109 "2010-12-15T22:38:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Your getting your right wing propoganda mixed up (amazing because of its logical consistency:rolleyes:). Immigrants that come here without degrees aren’t supposed to be successful and we’re not supposed to want them. I support open borders and an elimination of welfare programs. Immigrants who want to come mooch off the system will wither off the vine; those who want to work hard will come and make fools of those Americans who happen to be too lazy to bust their butts for a living. I mean, we’re all immigrants here, or the children of immigrants. Who are we to tell the former natives of this land where they can go? If we eliminate welfare then what’s the problem with immigrants? Oh yea I forgot, they’re “stealing our jobs”. Bah. A job belongs to no one unless you’re the employer. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/110 "2010-12-16T01:56:10Z")
I have no problem with a border that’s open two ways. Anybody that wants to work is welcome to come in and any millionaire that doesn’t want to live here is welcome to get out. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/111 "2010-12-16T01:59:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have no problem with a border that’s open two ways. Anybody that wants to work is welcome to come in and any millionaire that doesn’t want to live here is welcome to get out. I’d rather keep the millionaires by having lower taxes. They’re the ones who hire people and buy things. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/112 "2010-12-16T02:11:52Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > I’d rather keep the millionaires by having lower taxes. They’re the ones who hire people and buy things. You mean that we should still see the progress brought by the Bush era taxes? [http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/10/28-0](http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/10/28-0) > [@](#): > > $1 Trillion in Reserves, But Not Hiring: Is Business ‘Anti-Jobs’? > US Companies Stash One Trillion Dollars in Cash: Moody’s > > WASHINGTON — US companies are hoarding nearly one trillion dollars of cash that they are unlikely to use for expansion amid a muddled outlook on economic recovery, rating agency Moody’s said Wednesday. > > “Companies will hesitate to spend their cash hoards on expansion until there is greater certainty about the direction of the US economy,” said Steven Oman, senior vice president at Moody’s Investor Service. Ah, no. They were busy speculating in housing. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/113 "2010-12-16T02:12:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have no problem with a border that’s open two ways. Anybody that wants to work is welcome to come in and any millionaire that doesn’t want to live here is welcome to get out. I would modify that to say that millionaires who don’t want to pay taxes have to go. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/114 "2010-12-16T02:23:13Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > I’d rather keep the millionaires by having lower taxes. They’re the ones who hire people and buy things. Ye gods, he believes in trickle down. Who will be the one to tell him there is no Santa Claus and never has been? ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/115 "2010-12-16T02:42:18Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I would modify that to say that millionaires who don’t want to pay taxes have to go. Ah, tax evasion… the problem that sank Greece. I’d solve that by replacing the income tax with a flat consumption tax. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/116 "2010-12-16T02:47:04Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Ye gods, he believes in trickle down. Who will be the one to tell him there is no Santa Claus and never has been? I don’t care if wealth trickles down or not. Other nations need the working class. We don’t. We need innovators and investors in America. This country is the land of opportunity, not handouts - it’s for people who make their own wealth. They don’t really need to care whether wealth trickles down, up, or sideways… it always comes to them because they know how to find it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/117 "2010-12-16T02:53:53Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > I don’t care if wealth trickles down or not. Other nations need the working class. We don’t. Unfortunately, that does not change the fact that most Americans are working class, and always have been, and always will be. So the only relevant question to ask is, what does the working class need from the nation? (Hint: It ain’t trickle-down.) > [@HRoark43](#): > > This country is the land of opportunity, not handouts - it’s for people who make their own wealth. “People who make their own wealth” – needing neither employers nor employees – includes the few remaining Mom & Pop stores, the few remaining family farmers (arguably), drug dealers (some), and practically nobody else. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/118 "2010-12-16T04:58:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “People who make their own wealth” – needing neither employers nor employees – includes the few remaining Mom & Pop stores, the few remaining family farmers (arguably), drug dealers (some), and practically nobody else. Actually drug dealing’s a pretty labor intensive field. Even a low level drug boss needs dozens of employees moving the product down at the street level. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/119 "2010-12-16T06:10:42Z")
Well, too bad there’s no real money in being a YouTube hero or internet porn star. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845/120 "2010-12-16T06:13:36Z")
That uncertainty in the economy that’s slowing investment? That’s lack of reliable demand. Millionaires are not reliable demand for every sector. The grindingly poor are only reliable demand for a few sectors, & they don’t have much money in any case, so calling them “demand” is being kind. It’s a broad middle-income class that really drives demand in a variety of sectors, & if that’s shrinking, then some businesses close shop. Partial leveling, getting more money more evenly distributed, actually works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-american-dopers-a-question/563845.md?page=7)