# Liberal attitude did NOT cost the election **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2004, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050 "2004-11-04T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/61 "2004-11-05T03:14:14Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > Just because such flyers were distributed doesn’t mean people believed them. For all their efforts and expenses, I don’t think the swiftvets or Michael Moore had more than minimal effect on the election either. Shit stinks, whether from the right or left, it’s still shit and it still stinks. Most voters can smell it. Dunno about that, entirely. The polls showed that the first round of Swiftboat attacks had a marked effect on Kerry. Later on, it may have been that people knew they were shit, or all the people they would affect were already effected, but Kerry still had to dig out of that hole. ---
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/62 "2004-11-05T03:19:50Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > Speak for your own candidate. Bush was voted for. We _like_ him as a candidate. Perfect? No. But certainly great. Kerry, on the other hand, is just the schlub that was there suck up anti-Bush votes. IIRC, **PunditLisa** voted for Bush. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/63 "2004-11-05T03:22:35Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Dunno about that, entirely. The polls showed that the first round of Swiftboat attacks had a marked effect on Kerry. Later on, it may have been that people knew they were shit, or all the people they would affect were already effected, but Kerry still had to dig out of that hole. Of course, I have no way to measure my opinion on a cosmic scale. I live in a very conservative area, and most of the comments I heard about the swiftvets ads were negative. People thought they were “tacky”. Tacky being a southernism for low-class, cheap shot, etc. I don’t know of anybody whose vote was swayed by those ads. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/64 "2004-11-05T03:23:03Z")
> [@Suse](#): > > IIRC, **PunditLisa** voted for Bush. Exception to the rule, if that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/65 "2004-11-05T03:27:19Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > Do you want to win next time? Yes or no? > > Treating people like contempt isn’t the way to do it. Sorry, but this is crap. This is _exactly_ how to win an election. Someone disagrees with you? Call them traitors. Question their patriotism. Question _everything_ about their lives, throw everything about them in as negative a light as possible. Don’t worry about facts, or evidence. Rhetoric is all you need. Sling that mud with as wide a brush as you can, and you win the brass ring. The Republicans have proved this. We either follow their lead, or we might as well give up. Facts don’t get you votes. Policy doesn’t get you votes. Nice doesn’t get you votes. What gets you votes is painting your opponent as the biggest shitheel rapist baby-eating demonic bastard since Genghis Khan. It’s too bad, but that’s the way it is. > [@silenus](#): > > The left is dead. The way to power is through the center. Bill Clinton showed you that, and you’ve turned your back on that lesson. John Kerry just received the second largest popular vote in American history. How the fuck does that make the left “dead”? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/66 "2004-11-05T03:29:22Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I apologize if I ever gave the impression I believed you were. Thank you very much. I can’t tell you how much it means to me. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/67 "2004-11-05T03:36:21Z")
Yeah, Democrats need to understand the other side. The problem is, the other side doesn’t understand the other side. You won’t be able to find out what the average Republican thinks about the Bush administration giving vital national secrets to Iran through Chalabi, because they don’t have a reasoned opinion on the subject. You won’t be able to find out what they think about how we let the suspected WMD sites be looted before we got to them, because they don’t understand it themselves. You can ask them why we had to rush our soldiers into Iraq, leaving opium-warlords to get the man who murdered thousands of us, but trust me when I say an answer will not be forthcoming; they don’t know. In many cases, they don’t even realize how few issues they agree with Bush on, or how many they agree with Kerry on. And that is why this election was so difficult; if the other side doesn’t even know their own views, how can we figure them out? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/68 "2004-11-05T03:37:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > John Kerry just received the second largest popular vote in American history. How the fuck does that make the left “dead”? According to polls I read (no cite, sorry) 47% of the independent voters that voted for Kerry did so because he **wasn’t** Bush, not because they supported his position. So Kerry got the 2nd largest popular vote in history. BFD. He lost to the guy who got the **largest** popular vote in history. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TonyF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TonyF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyF)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/69 "2004-11-05T03:55:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 47% of the independent voters Huh? Let’s not trot out vague stats. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/70 "2004-11-05T04:45:16Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > According to polls I read (no cite, sorry) 47% of the independent voters that voted for Kerry did so because he **wasn’t** Bush, not because they supported his position. So Kerry got the 2nd largest popular vote in history. BFD. He lost to the guy who got the **largest** popular vote in history. 😃 Yeah. Also means he holds the record for lowest approval rating to ever be re-elected. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/71 "2004-11-05T05:10:40Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > (Bolding mine) > > Just because such flyers were distributed doesn’t mean people believed them. For all their efforts and expenses, I don’t think the swiftvets or Michael Moore had more than minimal effect on the election either. Shit stinks, whether from the right or left, it’s still shit and it still stinks. Most voters can smell it. When I read [this](http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Report10_21_04.pdf), I find it difficult to accept the proposition that most Bush supporters are able tell shit from shinola. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/72 "2004-11-05T05:19:28Z")
So _that’s_ why brown wing-tips stink! ---
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/73 "2004-11-05T05:25:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excuse me, **Suse** , but I’m not referring so much to the venting of the past two days as to the tone on this board for the past five years. It’s not the venting, **Suse**. It’s the way liberals had of approaching certain issues as “You think as we do, or you’re an ignorant bigot.” > > - Rick Ah, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/74 "2004-11-05T05:40:05Z")
**Miller** wrote > [@](#): > > This is exactly how to win an election. Someone disagrees with you? Call them traitors. Question their patriotism. Question everything about their lives, throw everything about them in as negative a light as possible. Don’t worry about facts, or evidence. Rhetoric is all you need. Sling that mud with as wide a brush as you can, and you win the brass ring. The Republicans have proved this. We either follow their lead, or we might as well give up. Facts don’t get you votes. Policy doesn’t get you votes. Nice doesn’t get you votes. What gets you votes is painting your opponent as the biggest shitheel rapist baby-eating demonic bastard since Genghis Khan. It’s too bad, but that’s the way it is. Honestly, **Miller** : How can you point at the Republicans and say “negative, distorters, mud-slingers, liars”, and not say the same about Democrats? I mean honestly. Do you really believe that Republicans used every vile trick, and Democrats were goody-two-shoes, and that’s what the reason the election went the way it did? Maybe you’re just venting. But it sure sounds like you’ve put some serious blinders on yourself, and that’s just no way to go through life. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/75 "2004-11-05T06:05:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Sorry, but this is crap. This is _exactly_ how to win an election. Someone disagrees with you? Call them traitors. Oh come on. You had to have known that my post was about _voters_, not candidates. Do you want your neighbor, your classmate, your coworker, to agree with you on the issues? Then DO NOT call them traitors. DO NOT insult them, treat them with contempt, call them “stupid.” Trust me, that won’t pesuade them to listen to your take on this issues. It won’t make them more apt to want to vote for “your” side. Do you agree with this? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/76 "2004-11-05T06:48:54Z")
> [@Bill H.](#): > > Honestly, **Miller** : How can you point at the Republicans and say “negative, distorters, mud-slingers, liars”, and not say the same about Democrats? I mean honestly. Do you really believe that Republicans used every vile trick, and Democrats were goody-two-shoes, and that’s what the reason the election went the way it did? How can I say that? Because the Democrats are fuckin’ amateurs at it, that’s why. Hopefully, we’ve learned something from you guys this year, because you are the absolute masters. We’ll find out in 2006, I suppose. I can tell you right now, which ever way that election goes, it will not be pretty. If the Dems have clue one on their head, they’ll do something that’ll make the Swift Vets look like Walter Cronkite. > [@yosemite](#): > > Oh come on. You had to have known that my post was about voters, not candidates. So was mine. > [@](#): > > Do you want your neighbor, your classmate, your coworker, to agree with you on the issues? Then DO NOT call them traitors. DO NOT insult them, treat them with contempt, call them “stupid.” > > Trust me, that won’t pesuade them to listen to your take on this issues. It won’t make them more apt to want to vote for “your” side. No. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying, if I want to convince John Q. Undecided to vote for my guy, I call **Bill H.** a traitor. I insult **Bricker**. I treat **Sam Stone** with contempt. I call **Starving Artist** stupid. Which is a shame, because except for **Bill H.** , whom I don’t really know, I actually like all those conservative posters. But being friendly with them isn’t going to put a Democrat in the White House. Sorry, guys. That, apparently, is politics in the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/77 "2004-11-05T06:54:16Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > You can be “right” and be an asshole and turn people away, or you can be “right” but respectful, and actually persuade people to see your way. Choose. Don’t blame other people because your shitty, hostile attitude turns them away before you even have a chance to make your case and perhaps inspire them to change what’s in their heart, or their perception of things. You only have yourself to blame if you drive someone away because you’re an asshole. Only yourself. I think you misunderstood my point, or you’re confusing me with someone else, or…? I’m not blaming anyone for anything. In fact, I was responding to the idea you and some others were implying - blaming liberals’ attitudes for people turning to right-wing politicians. Isn’t that passing the buck too? My point was that I’m amazed that people would choose/vote against a candidate or a political ideology on the basis of someone else’s “attitude”. Using that criteria, how can you end up choosing _anything_? Is there an ideology out there that doesn’t have some “asshole” adherents? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/78 "2004-11-05T06:58:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying, if I want to convince John Q. Undecided to vote for my guy, I call **Bill H.** a traitor. I insult **Bricker**. I treat **Sam Stone** with contempt. I call **Starving Artist** stupid. It’s just that Dems accusing Republicans of being ‘traitors’ or ‘un-American’ comes across as funny, not insulting. As the party that is percieved as wanting to bend over and spread 'em in front of the UN and whatever other foreign body that shouts loud enough, it’ll be an uphill fight for you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/79 "2004-11-05T07:02:02Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > It’s just that Dems accusing Republicans of being ‘traitors’ or ‘un-American’ comes across as funny, not insulting. As the party that is percieved as wanting to bend over and spread 'em in front of the UN and whatever other foreign body that shouts loud enough, it’ll be an uphill fight for you. Well, obviously the specific insults will have to be tailored for the specific target… …you fascist, baby-stomping, gay-hating, white supremacist, wife-beating, fundy goat fucker. There. I just won us New Mexico in '08. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-attitude-did-not-cost-the-election/273050/80 "2004-11-05T07:03:46Z")
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