# Liberal, can we talk about hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980 "2005-02-26T05:33:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/162 "2005-03-02T19:57:02Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Nice job of totally failing (for the umpteenth consecutive time) to actually respond to any of the meat of what **Excalibre** or I just posted, **Lib**. Since when am I beholden to respond to you? This thread has become a maypole. We’ve been round and round, with everybody stating his opinion multiple times, and now we’re out of ribbon and butting heads. If you want this to continue, then you must enjoy shitstorms. As to Excalibre, I have no quarrel with him. He and I reached an understanding some time ago. We agree on much, and we have agreed to disagree on the rest. There isn’t any point in saying anything else about any of this. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/163 "2005-03-02T20:02:53Z")
> [@leander](#): > > I don’t get it. How many times does one get to be a “jerk” before _some_ mod does _something_ about it? Is there some special club I can join that gives me immunity from the rules? Apparently, you’re the High Holy Poobah. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/164 "2005-03-02T20:06:47Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Is there some special club I can join that gives me immunity from the rules? Why? Do you feel the urge to start acting like a jerk? 😃 Listen, leander, compared to you I’ve only been here for a short time. Not to mention you might not know me from Adam. I’d like to share something I’ve learned about Liberal, and something I know about him. You’re free, of course, to tell me to go shit in my hat, just hear me out. I’m trying to put this in perspective, and the only real connection I can make is to something attributed to Gandhiji: _‘wealth without work’ is a path to our destruction_. Expand this to the pursuit of knowledge. Often, in my experience, some of the best revelations are bought with hard introspection. I mean, if someone just _hands_ you the answer, how much will you really learn? **This is what I’ve learned about Liberal**. He’s got a lot of answers, and by God, he’s got a history of being very, very direct. Heck, in his last pitting, he pledged to try and adjust his behavior to, among other things, be less direct. Here, Max says Liberal is avoiding the question, you infer that Liberal’s being a jerk. I’m not going to speak for Liberal, and I’m damn sure not going to tell you what to think. The thing is, I believe people are letting their feelings stand in the way of the message. There has been a lot of interaction in this thread, but as a disinterested observer (and this is nothing new) it looks like a bunch of folks are reading Liberal’s words through hate-colored glasses. This phenomenon regularly has me baffled. Sure, he _could_ just produce the answer, with all the flair and importance of leaving a smelly turd. Or, he could suggest an idea of what I’m missing and let me hash it out. In my case, Liberal respects my intelligence enough to let me stretch for what he’s meaning. Many times over, his advice has helped me. One time, his words spun my head around and pulled it right out of my ass. That’s the mark of a real friend. Maybe people get angry because Liberal tries to answer a question they never asked. Maybe it’s a question they don’t want to face. I just don’t know. **This is what I know about Liberal**. He is a good man. He really, truly gives a shit. In another time, I would have called him my brother. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/165 "2005-03-02T22:11:56Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Since when am I beholden to respond to you? Who said anything about beholden? We were having a conversation, I thought that your response was feeble and dodged the question, and I called you on it. Ain’t got nothing to do with beholden. > [@](#): > > This thread has become a maypole. We’ve been round and round, with everybody stating his opinion multiple times, and now we’re out of ribbon and butting heads. However many times you’ve expressed your opinion, either you’ve expressed it poorly or I’ve read it poorly, because I _still_ don’t know whether or not you agree that there is a substantive difference between the word “faggot” and the word “fundie”, namely, that for a significant portion of the SDMB’s readership, the word “faggot” is one that is directly associated with a threat of bigoted and potentially life-threatening violence that hangs over their head every second of the day, which is NOT true of fundie. Sure, I may be repeating myself by saying that, but you’re repeating yourself by dodging that issue over and over, and I’m calling you on it. It’s also frustrating that you went off (and took the thread with you) on a long tangent about violence towards Christians in other cultures, as if that’s relevant. > [@](#): > > If you want this to continue, then you must enjoy shitstorms. What I **don’t** enjoy is people who won’t give straight responses to tough questions about their positions. > [@](#): > > As to Excalibre, I have no quarrel with him. He and I reached an understanding some time ago. We agree on much, and we have agreed to disagree on the rest. There isn’t any point in saying anything else about any of this. Ahh, yes, quite an understanding you’ve reached: > [@Excalibre](#): > > Dammit, sometimes arguing with you is like nailing Jell-o to a wall ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/166 "2005-03-02T22:16:57Z")
**El Cid** , fair enough – and well said. Oddly, I tend to agree with **Lib** in this thread about the word “fundie”. I personally think hate speech is more in the eye of the speaker than in the beholder. That is, hate speech ought to be judged based on the _intent_ of the speaker rather than some litmus test of reactions. That being said, it’s so very, very tiresome to have to see **Lib** acting like a jerk all the time and rarely, if ever, get called on it by the mods. He has such an incredible history here – I couldn’t begin to tell you all the meltdowns and ass-kissing that’s gone on – that for all of his positive attributes I find myself _avoiding_ this place more often as a result of his behavior alone. My girlfriend is a schoolteacher. If one student out of twenty-five is causing such difficulties and being the focus of so much attention (positive or negative), that student is removed regardless of their contributions. Cause frankly it ain’t fair to the other kids. Just the other day there was yet another thread about **Lib** and his behavior. He promised up and down that he would change. I humbly submit that he has not. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/167 "2005-03-02T22:17:55Z")
> [@El Cid Viscoso](#): > > Often, in my experience, some of the best revelations are bought with hard introspection. I mean, if someone just _hands_ you the answer, how much will you really learn? You know, I gotta call BS on this. The SDMB is a place for fighting of ignorance, for clear and direct discussion of and debate of issues. If **Lib** operates on a vastly higher intellectual plane, he should either use that brilliance to give clear and understandable explanations of his position, or go find another place to start his religion via vague statements. And if he’s NOT operating on a vastly higher intellectual plane, then the fact that (for instance) I _still_ have no idea precisely what is position on hate speech is, despite reading this entire thread, is just evidence that he’s a bad communicator, and a stubborn and frustrating one, to boot. This is not the place for clever discourse in which he leads us, his eager students, from insight to insight, carefully laying out a trail of breadcrumb-like clues for us, waiting until we’ve mastered one topic before daring to introduce us to the next. > [@](#): > > **This is what I know about Liberal**. He is a good man. He really, truly gives a shit. In another time, I would have called him my brother. I can well believe that all of that is true. And if it is, I praise and respect him for it. That has little or nothing to do with his strengths and/or weaknesses as a doper. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/168 "2005-03-02T22:39:42Z")
> [@leander](#): > > Just the other day there was yet another thread about **Lib** and his behavior. He promised up and down that he would change. I humbly submit that he has not. What I promised to do in that thread was try to be less mean — as in not jumping into threads and blasting people who are ranting about their bad days. I did not promise to change my opinions, to refrain from expressing them, or for that matter to shirk defending myself when some jackass calls out to the mods to have me banned. The only person I’ve been remotely mean to since that time is the recalcitrant and passive-aggressive Scott\_plaid, who has been told by practically everybody that he’s a jerk. If you have issues of some kind, don’t blame me for them. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/169 "2005-03-02T23:06:41Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > This is not the place for clever discourse in which he leads us, his eager students, from insight to insight, carefully laying out a trail of breadcrumb-like clues for us, waiting until we’ve mastered one topic before daring to introduce us to the next. Oh, I’m not saying you should go along with any of that. It looks to be a pretty miserable way to exist here in Doperdom. I only offer my personal experiences in the hope that some people for whom I hold a lot of respect will try to look at this a little differently. When you view a man as an enemy, you become the victim of his words, a position from which there is only defense. That seems like the most miserable existence of all. This _is_ a place for clever discourse, though. And sometimes in that give-and-take, the richest dish has the subtlest flavor. Again, Max, I’m not trying to tell anybody how to live. Just suggesting a new way to groove. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/170 "2005-03-03T00:16:29Z")
Cid, whatever it is that I’ve done to deserve your defense, I’m glad I did it. 🙂 I really don’t think I’m any smarter than anyone else, but I do think many of my ideas are very foreign and unusual, and that makes presenting them problematic. When I state something like, “the atoms are not real”, I am giving my blunt and direct statement of opinion. Because it is so far from the viewpoint of materialists (and most people here are materialists of one flavor or another), it sounds like something cryptic and vague. But if I write out the whole concept, from premise to conclusion, it sounds like something complicated and verbose. So what I choose to do is present the idea, and let it develop over time, through give and take, question and answer, debate and rebuttal. We are on the sixth page now of a thread in Great Debates discussing whether the universe is real. And it is a wonderful exchange from great minds like Eris, Sentient, Otherwise, and others. Some things just take a long time to discuss or explain. I do tire of these occasional spontaneous gang bangs of “You’re a jerk!” and “Ban him!”. When a half dozen or so people (out of tens of thousands) clamor loudly enough and yell it often enough, even the likes of TVeblen joins in. (You never responded to my e-mail, Veb.) I don’t intend to be mean, but I am not backing down into submission and taking ridiculous positions on things like so-called hate speech just so Nervous Pervis can get up the nerve to come to the board and post. What a ridiculous thing it is to blame me for his own decision not to post. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/171 "2005-03-03T01:17:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I do tire of these occasional spontaneous gang bangs of “You’re a jerk!” and “Ban him!”. Understandably. Although I hope you notice that I’ve certainly never called for your banning, and the closest I’ve come to calling you a jerk is (I think) saying that I find it frustrating to argue with you, and you sometimes piss me off. > [@](#): > > I don’t intend to be mean, but I am not backing down into submission and taking ridiculous positions on things like so-called hate speech just so Nervous Pervis can get up the nerve to come to the board and post. What a ridiculous thing it is to blame me for his own decision not to post. Ummm, I’m not sure who “Nervous Pervis” is in this example, and I’m certainly not trying to bully you into backing down about a position that you firmly believe in. What I _am_ trying to do, with a frustrating lack of success, is understand precisely what your position is on “so-called” hate speech, particularly your opinion of the validity of the claim originally put forward in this thread by **Excalibre** that “faggot” is significantly different from “fundie” (which does not, of course, axiomatically prove that “faggot”, or anything else, should be banned, or that “fundie” should not be banned). (And, hate speech not being as abstruse a topic as the philosophical foundations of cosmology, I presume that your position on it is comprehensible to the layperson.) ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/172 "2005-03-03T01:46:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What I promised to do in that thread was try to be less mean — as in not jumping into threads and blasting people who are ranting about their bad days. I did not promise to change my opinions, to refrain from expressing them, or for that matter to shirk defending myself when some jackass calls out to the mods to have me banned. The only person I’ve been remotely mean to since that time is the recalcitrant and passive-aggressive Scott\_plaid, who has been told by practically everybody that he’s a jerk. If you have issues of some kind, don’t blame me for them. > [@Liberal](#): > > I’m unnecessarily rude at times, often when I first make a point. > > My writing style can sometimes make for a tedious read, and can make me seem pretentious or condescending. > > I get too worked up over piddly shit sometimes, and should just let it go. > > I sometimes hurt people’s feelings by my choice of words, and my approach in general to certain topics. > > I hang out in the Pit too much, which only exacerbates everything else. > > I should identify when I take the role of devil’s advocate and am arguing a position that I believe has merit but that I do not prefer. > > I frustrate libertarians who are trying to proselytize So, how do you think it’s going so far? A few other points: 1. I don’t know if you missed it or not, but I happen to agree with you on the whole “so-called hate speech thing.” Yet for some reason I was able to sum up my stance in two sentences, while others seem to think you’re being rather obtuse in your four page “explanation”. 2. I find it somewhat ironic that you went crying to the mods a while back when people were calling you names and twisting “Liberal” around to make fun of you, yet here you are with “Nervous Pervis”. 3. I’ve been busy lately. But when I do get the time to post, I generally try to stay away from the many Lib-bashing, Lib-stroking, Lib-whatever threads going on around here. And since they seem to play such a prominent role in the Pit (much to your delight I’m sure) it makes it rather annoying for the rest of us. 4. I’m not calling for your banning. But it would be nice if you were disciplined once in a while. Cause you clearly need it. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/173 "2005-03-03T01:55:57Z")
> [@leander](#): > > **El Cid** , fair enough – and well said. Thanks, man. Nice talking with you. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980/174 "2005-03-08T00:24:38Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t intend to be mean, but I am not backing down into submission and taking ridiculous positions on things like so-called hate speech just so Nervous Pervis can get up the nerve to come to the board and post. What a ridiculous thing it is to blame me for his own decision not to post. Wait, what? My position is ridiculous? At least I’ve taken the time to justify _my_ position, asshole. And yeah, it’s based on the emotional realities of a group of people you couldn’t begin to understand. It’s anything but ridiculous, you dick. Fuck you. Every time I start to think maybe the Blowjob Brigade is potentially right about you, you do something to make who you are abundantly clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-can-we-talk-about-hate-speech/291980.md?page=8)