# Liberal capital cities **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 16, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044 "2012-05-16T01:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/21 "2012-05-16T11:41:19Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > I spent six years in Madison, getting my bachelor’s and master’s degrees. It’s extraordinarily liberal, compared to the rest of Wisconsin, and the presence of the University of Wisconsin is undoubtedly the primary reason. In addition to current and recent students, it also seems to have a fair number of people who came to Madison once upon a time for school, fell in love with the liberal culture of the city, and just stayed. If you’re truly a “crunchy granola” liberal type, there are few towns or cities of any real size in the Midwest where you’ll feel at home…Madison is one of them. I have a friend that says (whether it’s true or not, I don’t know) Madison has the highest number of cab drivers with grad degrees in the country. If it’s true, I always assumed it’s because (like you said) they graduated and loved the city so much the couldn’t get themselves to leave and just keep telling telling themself a job is just around the corner so they’ll stick around a few more months and see what happens. My brother and his wife got really lucky. He got his grad degree in physics and found a job right in town (in Madison) and she got her doctorate and managed to get placed at a local hospital. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/22 "2012-05-16T12:13:29Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Cities and urban areas are generally more liberal everywhere in the country than rural areas. > > That’s the only correlation that works. There’s nothing special about capitals except that they’re cities. If they are more urban than the state as a whole, they’ll be more liberal. If they are less urban, they’ll be more conservative (except for some college towns). Washington, D.C. is perhaps the city with the largest black population, and that’s the only explanation needed. > > I’d say that the OP is using confirmation bias on a ridiculously limited sample. It definitely wasn’t deliberate, I just noticed one day how two very conservative areas had two very notoriously liberal bastions, noticed that they were both the capital city, and wondered if there was a correlation, by no means was I stating a fact, nor was that the intention. I still have problems believing the “it’s a city” thing completely, though; as I pointed out other cities in those areas (Dallas, Calgary) are, if anything, known for their conservatism, like the rural areas of the state or province. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, it’s cities in general. See [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gastner_map_purple_byarea_bycounty.png) “red-blue” map shaded from red to purple to blue and broken down by county. The divide is not North vs. South, or East vs. West, or Coasts vs. Flyover, it’s City vs. Countryside. But, as I pointed out, this isn’t always true, can you locate Salt Lake City from the surrounding red on the map? Indianapolis? Some of the other outliers that were mentioned in this thread? I think the “college town” aspect might have something to do with it. (College residents do generally tend to be more left (I know I’ve drifted steadily right over the last 20 years since college (though I’m still decidedly left of centre), and they also tend to vote more. If I had the time, I’d try to locate some college towns that are located in a red sea on the map that aren’t state capitals or large cities. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/23 "2012-05-16T14:01:01Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > I don’t think that’s really what that map shows. It looks like there tons of rural blue or at least purple counties, and most of the red state cities that aren’t college towns or state capitals are at best reddish-purple. Rural counties with Indian reservations or large Hispanic populations are much more distinct than cities. Most of the big cities are blue, but even big cities like Houston or Phoenix or Dallas are barely purpler than their red surroundings and important medium-sized regional cities surrounded by rural areas like Wichita or Billings or Amarillo are invisible. But, **everywhere, consistently,** the city is bluer than the countryside around it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/24 "2012-05-16T14:12:59Z")
You would be hard-pressed to call Sacramento liberal. From the stories I’ve heard from students from Sacramento, it’s like going back to the 1950’s and not in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/25 "2012-05-16T14:20:12Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > I still have problems believing the “it’s a city” thing completely, though; as I pointed out other cities in those areas (Dallas, Calgary) are, if anything, known for their conservatism, like the rural areas of the state or province. I don’t think your Texas example works as well as you think. While there are several well known conservatives who call Dallas home, the city itself is also liberal compared to the rest of Texas (while still being conservative compared to the US as a whole). Ditto Houston and San Antonio. Likewise, while Austin might be considered “liberal”, compared to the rest of the country, it’s closer to being centrist or just slightly left-of-center. Many of the people I went to college with who came in from “liberal” states still thought Austin itself was pretty conservative, after all. In fact, if you look at the last set of statewide elections, you’ll note that the Democrats had their best results in the Houston-Dallas/Ft Worth-San Antonio areas (urban) than say West Texas (incredibly rural). In the last set of state judicial elections, Dallas county went almost straight ticket Democrat. The Democrats in the Texas Congressional delegation are also more likely to be from one of the big cities than otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/26 "2012-05-16T14:46:41Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > I still have problems believing the “it’s a city” thing completely, though; as I pointed out other cities in those areas (Dallas, Calgary) are, if anything, known for their conservatism, like the rural areas of the state or province. Dallas has official non-partisan elections for mayor but in the real world, Democrats have won the position two of the last three times. There is a redistricting battle going on for the four new House seats, but the expectation was that one of them would be a majority Hispanic and Democratic district in Dallas. Houston famously has a gay, female, Democratic mayor, BTW. > [@](#): > > But, as I pointed out, this isn’t always true, can you locate Salt Lake City from the surrounding red on the map? Indianapolis? Some of the other outliers that were mentioned in this thread? I think the “college town” aspect might have something to do with it. (College residents do generally tend to be more left (I know I’ve drifted steadily right over the last 20 years since college (though I’m still decidedly left of centre), and they also tend to vote more. If I had the time, I’d try to locate some college towns that are located in a red sea on the map that aren’t state capitals or large cities. I thought we’ve had success on this board in stomping out the very silly notion that unless you can find 100% correlation something isn’t true. I guess we’ll have to work even harder. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/27 "2012-05-16T14:51:37Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I don’t think your Texas example works as well as you think. > > While there are several well known conservatives who call Dallas home, the city itself is also liberal compared to the rest of Texas (while still being conservative compared to the US as a whole). Ditto Houston and San Antonio. Likewise, while Austin might be considered “liberal”, compared to the rest of the country, it’s closer to being centrist or just slightly left-of-center. > > Many of the people I went to college with who came in from “liberal” states still thought Austin itself was pretty conservative, after all. > > In fact, if you look at the last set of statewide elections, you’ll note that the Democrats had their best results in the Houston-Dallas/Ft Worth-San Antonio areas (urban) than say West Texas (incredibly rural). In the last set of state judicial elections, Dallas county went almost straight ticket Democrat. The Democrats in the Texas Congressional delegation are also more likely to be from one of the big cities than otherwise. Practicaly ALL of the large cities in Texas are solidly Democratic- sometimes even liberal. The city of Dallas is perceived as highly conservative, but it isn’t. Oh, there are millions of very conservative people in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex, but not in the city itself. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/28 "2012-05-16T23:49:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, **everywhere, consistently,** the city is bluer than the countryside around it. That’s true with most of the very large cities, but most state capitals aren’t very large cities. Try to find a city of, say, 50,000-300,000 people in a red state that doesn’t have a major university or a state capital that sticks out on that map. I don’t see any. At least not in the west where I’m familiar with the geography. Saying the red/blue divide is merely urban/rural is somewhat oversimplifying things. If that were the case, the country would be overwhelmingly liberal, since only about 30% of the population is either rural or lives in cities with less than 50,000 people. I think you can safely say that the major metro areas tend to be more liberal and the rural areas and small towns tend to be more conservative, but the cities in the middle go either way. Considering that most state capitals are in the sort of “swing zone” of medium-sized, I think saying simply that they’re liberal because they’re cities is not a very useful explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/29 "2012-05-16T23:53:15Z")
Large cities in this country do tend to be more left-leaning, so I’m not surprised that DC voters lean left, regardless of the collective bent of the president or legislators sent there by the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/30 "2012-05-17T01:19:53Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > Saying the red/blue divide is merely urban/rural is somewhat oversimplifying things. If that were the case, the country would be overwhelmingly liberal, since only about 30% of the population is either rural or lives in cities with less than 50,000 people. I think you can safely say that the major metro areas tend to be more liberal and the rural areas and small towns tend to be more conservative, but the cities in the middle go either way. Considering that most state capitals are in the sort of “swing zone” of medium-sized, I think saying simply that they’re liberal because they’re cities is not a very useful explanation. This is mathematically wrong in two different ways. For one, being liberal or conservative is a tendency, not an absolute. Even in extreme cases, you won’t ever get more than 80% to one side or the other. In most cases, the split is less. The second problem is that you need to divide the country into center cities, suburban areas and exurban and rural areas with approximately one-third of the population in each. Just because a center city is liberal does not imply that the metro area is. That would say that surrounding suburban areas are also liberal; in fact, the opposite tends to be true. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/31 "2012-05-17T01:44:26Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This is mathematically wrong in two different ways. For one, being liberal or conservative is a tendency, not an absolute. Even in extreme cases, you won’t ever get more than 80% to one side or the other. In most cases, the split is less. The second problem is that you need to divide the country into center cities, suburban areas and exurban and rural areas with approximately one-third of the population in each. Just because a center city is liberal does not imply that the metro area is. That would say that surrounding suburban areas are also liberal; in fact, the opposite tends to be true. I don’t understand how that makes me “wrong” on either count. Who said it wasn’t just a tenancy or a “lean” to one direction or another? I certainly didn’t. I would also agree that there are differences you can see if you break down a community, but for the purposes of this thread we’re talking about whether an urban area as a whole tends or leans one way or another. Pretty much every city has a hip downtown area that tends liberal, but I think most people wouldn’t say that alone makes the whole character of the city liberal. Or are you saying that a city’s overall politics can be predicted by the percentage of suburban vs. center city dwellers? Or that we can’t say anything about the overall politics of an urban area as a whole, because they vary from neighborhood to neighborhood? ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/32 "2012-05-17T02:28:10Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Washington, D.C. is perhaps the city with the largest black population Not by any of these counts > **[List of U.S. cities with large Black populations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_with_large_African_American_populations)** > > This list of U.S. cities by black population covers all incorporated cities and Census-designated places with a population over 100,000 and a proportion of black residents over 30% in the 50 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and the territory of Puerto Rico and the population in each city that is black or African American. > The data source for the list is the 2020 United States Census. > At the time of the 2020 Census, there were 47.5 million Americans who were black (either alone or in combi... ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/33 "2012-05-17T03:47:14Z")
GreasyJack, there is a critically important distinction between center cities and metro areas. It is not a matter of neighborhoods, but a matter of political lines. For example, every center city in upstate New York is heavily Democratic, but every one is surrounded by suburbs which are heavily Republican. This traces back to the flight of the middle class - read whites - from center cities to the newly developed suburbs starting in the 1950s and can be found all over the Northeast Rust Belt. The effects are somewhat different in the South and West, which began their huge growth in the 1950s, both because the center cities were not as large and because those states usually retained annexing powers that the Rust Belt states mostly don’t allow. Hipness has virtually nothing whatsoever to do it; it’s overwhelmingly about minorities and poverty. And, these days, minorities are a more complicated group than blacks were. zombywoof, interesting numbers. My sense of those proportions is obviously outdated. I’ve read about Washington’s gentrification - again, read whiteness - but hadn’t realized the extent. I’m remembering the days when it was almost three-fourths black. I don’t think the rest of my comments are similarly outdated, though. I’ll defend them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/34 "2012-05-17T03:51:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > GreasyJack, there is a critically important distinction between center cities and metro areas. It is not a matter of neighborhoods, but a matter of political lines. For example, every center city in upstate New York is heavily Democratic, but every one is surrounded by suburbs which are heavily Republican. This traces back to the flight of the middle class - read whites - from center cities to the newly developed suburbs starting in the 1950s and can be found all over the Northeast Rust Belt. The effects are somewhat different in the South and West, which began their huge growth in the 1950s, both because the center cities were not as large and because those states usually retained annexing powers that the Rust Belt states mostly don’t allow. We really need [_Cities Without Suburbs!_](http://www.amazon.com/Cities-without-Suburbs-Woodrow-Special/dp/1930365144/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337226607&sr=1-1) > [@](#): > > _Cities without Suburbs,_ first published in 1993, has become an influential analysis of America’s cities among city planners, scholars, and citizens alike. In it, David Rusk, the former mayor of Albuquerque, argues that America must end the isolation of the central city from its suburbs in order to attack its urban problems. > > Rusk’s analysis, extending back to 1950, covers 522 central cities in 320 metro areas of the United States. He finds that cities trapped within old boundaries have suffered severe racial segregation and the emergence of an urban underclass. But cities with annexation powers——termed “elastic” by Rusk——have shared in area-wide development. > > This third edition is among the first books of any kind to employ information from the 2000 U.S. census. While refining his argument with this new data, Rusk assesses the major trends of the 1990s, including the perceived rebound of central cities, the impact of Hispanic and Asian migration, the growing similarities of older “inner-ring” suburbs to central cities, and the emerging influence of faith-based movements. New recommendations take account of growing restrictions on cities’ annexation powers, even in the Southwestern United States, and of new opportunities for federal shaping of home mortgage programs and urban planning processes. Rusk’s conclusion stresses cities’ growing experience with building political coalitions in pursuit of development and growth. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/35 "2012-05-17T04:13:53Z")
Rusk is a huge advocate of consolidation, either of political boundaries or of services where that is not possible. He appears in the Northeast regularly to argue for this. I’m not sure he’s had any real success, though. The conservative suburbanites don’t want to take up the burdens posed by the center cities, for a huge number of reasons, some related to race, some to politics, and some just because of the enormous expenses it would involve. Unless and until we get out of the current slump that is so heavily affecting state and local governments, I can guarantee that consolidations will happen even less. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/36 "2012-05-17T04:34:09Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > GreasyJack, there is a critically important distinction between center cities and metro areas. It is not a matter of neighborhoods, but a matter of political lines. For example, every center city in upstate New York is heavily Democratic, but every one is surrounded by suburbs which are heavily Republican. This traces back to the flight of the middle class - read whites - from center cities to the newly developed suburbs starting in the 1950s and can be found all over the Northeast Rust Belt. The effects are somewhat different in the South and West, which began their huge growth in the 1950s, both because the center cities were not as large and because those states usually retained annexing powers that the Rust Belt states mostly don’t allow. Hipness has virtually nothing whatsoever to do it; it’s overwhelmingly about minorities and poverty. And, these days, minorities are a more complicated group than blacks were. But only handful of state capitals are in the middle of big metropolitan areas like you describe. Most of them are medium-to-small sized regional cities that don’t have the populous center cities that large metro areas do and so the distinction between the center city and the suburbs is far less clearly-defined, politically and geographically. In my estimation anyways, it does make sense to look at those cities as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/37 "2012-05-17T04:52:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Rusk is a huge advocate of consolidation, either of political boundaries or of services where that is not possible. He appears in the Northeast regularly to argue for this. I’m not sure he’s had any real success, though. The conservative suburbanites don’t want to take up the burdens posed by the center cities, for a huge number of reasons, some related to race, some to politics, and some just because of the enormous expenses it would involve. Unless and until we get out of the current slump that is so heavily affecting state and local governments, I can guarantee that consolidations will happen even less. It is important enough that it ought to be mandated by the state governments (where inner-city voters have clout). But, we’re getting into GD territory now. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044/38 "2012-05-17T16:09:32Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > But only handful of state capitals are in the middle of big metropolitan areas like you describe. Most of them are medium-to-small sized regional cities that don’t have the populous center cities that large metro areas do and so the distinction between the center city and the suburbs is far less clearly-defined, politically and geographically. In my estimation anyways, it does make sense to look at those cities as a whole. Medium to small cities have exactly the same problems as larger cities and usually a similar range of demographics. And you’re underestimating the [size of state capitals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capitals_in_the_United_States). More than twice as many state capitals have a metropolitan district of over 1,000,000 than do under 100,000. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-capital-cities/622044.md?page=1)