# Liberal Christians: Genealogies in the Bible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507 "2013-07-03T03:42:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/101 "2013-07-03T19:55:04Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m estranged from God partly because the Yahweh of the Old Testament is a genocidal monster who gives every evidence of delighting in suffering and liked to murder children for things their ancestors did, and partly because he doesn’t exist. > > Mostly it’s the second part. If you consider that the OT is a history of how a particular tribe of people understood God, and not the words of God itself, the “monstrous” parts of the OT become a lot easier to understand. > [@Kable](#): > > If Melville wrote that Moby Dick rose from the dead and flew around would you believe it? Speaking of whales, what are your thoughts on Jonah? Really swallowed? There was a chapter all about that in Moby Dick. You didn’t ask me, but I consider it a parable about what happens when you try to run away from God. Not literal. > [@Kable](#): > > Yeah, that’s what I think too. I’m not to big on Jesus of the New Testament torturing all unbelievers in hell either. Have you even read the NT? Because that’s not part of it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/102 "2013-07-03T19:57:40Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > How old do you think non-religious people thought the world was in the first century? Plato, I think, guessed a couple hundred thousand years, but 7-10,000 was as good a guess as anyone. Once you make the leap that a “day” is not a 24-hour period, you’ve left literalism behind. Not if you use another verse to interpret the first, which it looks like they did. If you believe that the Bible states that 1 day=a thousand years, then you are still being literal. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/103 "2013-07-03T20:01:11Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Uh, I don’t know how you get this. My “religion” is based on 2,000 years of Christian tradition and theology as well as the bible. No, I don’t worship a book like some literalists do. The Bible is a source of divine revelation - maybe the most important one - but not the only one. You say that, but I don’t see any indication that you believe it. Almost any fact I question you deny. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying that she was both. I’m saying that the myth of the virgin birth has value and truth. Whether or not she was literally a virgin is immaterial. Sorry, if she wasn’t a virgin that parts not truth, no matter how much you claim otherwise. > [@](#): > > I don’t think he continues to live if he’s dead. Yes, metaphorically he is alive today as he ever was, regardless of what happened to his body. Metaphorically alive, generally means dead. > [@](#): > > I posted some quotes above from Origen and Clement, and modern scholars, to show that a non-literal interpretations of Genesis go back to the earliest church. Do you want to have a discussion, or do you want to be snarky? Because I’ll engage with you if it’s the former but not the latter. You claimed that it was a general belief, not that just a few guys held that belief. I’m asking you to support your claim. If you can’t, you should just admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/104 "2013-07-03T20:07:35Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > How old do you think non-religious people thought the world was in the first century? Not sure. > [@](#): > > Plato, I think, guessed a couple hundred thousand years, but 7-10,000 was as good a guess as anyone. Sounds like Plato’s guess was better to me. I wonder if Lucretius made a guess. > [@](#): > > Once you make the leap that a “day” is not a 24-hour period, you’ve left literalism behind. If Origen and Clement had lived in the modern era they’d be on board with the scientific consensus (much like the Catholic Church is). Sounds like they were just questioning time before the earth and moon were created, that sounds like they were taking Genesis pretty literal, and again you are trying to prove a general consensus. Usher Chronology sure looks to be taking things literally. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/105 "2013-07-03T20:10:15Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > If you consider that the OT is a history of how a particular tribe of people understood God, and not the words of God itself, the “monstrous” parts of the OT become a lot easier to understand. Oh, I don’t deny that the OT is in part a history of how the ancient Israelites imagined God to be. I’m just saying that the God they imagined, like Zeus, Odin, and most other sky gods, was a freaking monster with the moral sensibilities of a housecat and the moral authority of an inanimate carbon rod. There’s some good advice in the OT, but there’s also the story of Yahweh murdering David & Bathsheba’s infant son because He was angry at David, which I mention not because it’s the worst thing Yahweh does (it’s not even in the top 100) but because it’s the most personally offensive to me. And of course there’s the whole Yahweh-not-existing part. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/106 "2013-07-03T20:27:33Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You say that, but I don’t see any indication that you believe it. Almost any fact I question you deny. You’re asking about things that are unknowable, irrelevant, or both. The Bible (to quote Hooker) contains all knowledge _necessary for salvation_. It’s not a history book or science text. > [@](#): > > You claimed that it was a general belief, not that just a few guys held that belief. I’m asking you to support your claim. If you can’t, you should just admit it. > [@Kable](#): > > Sounds like they were just questioning time before the earth and moon were created, that sounds like they were taking Genesis pretty literal, and again you are trying to prove a general consensus. Usher Chronology sure looks to be taking things literally. Usher’s work was mid-17th century. I’m willing to back off my “generally” assertion and say that early church scholars had a diversity of views (not unlike modern religious scholars). In addition to Clement, Origen, and Augustine, there was Ambrose, Hilary and Philo who all promoted an allegorical understanding of Creation. In any case, your claim that the normal interpretation was literal until modern times is false. It’s a millennia-old argument. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/107 "2013-07-03T20:30:55Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > You’re asking about things that are unknowable, irrelevant, or both. The Bible (to quote Hooker) contains all knowledge _necessary for salvation_. If the knowledge is inaccurate, what are you being saved _from_? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/108 "2013-07-03T20:50:28Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > You’re asking about things that are unknowable, irrelevant, or both. The Bible (to quote Hooker) contains all knowledge _necessary for salvation_ But does it? > [@](#): > > Usher’s work was mid-17th century. So? > [@](#): > > I’m willing to back off my “generally” assertion and say that early church scholars had a diversity of views (not unlike modern religious scholars). Good, you learned something. > [@](#): > > In addition to Clement, Origen, and Augustine, there was Ambrose, Hilary and Philo who all promoted an allegorical understanding of Creation. I guess I would have to see you quote them. > [@](#): > > In any case, your claim that the normal interpretation was literal until modern times is false. It’s a millennia-old argument. I don’t think I claimed to know what “normal interpretation” is, I think it was you doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/109 "2013-07-03T20:52:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you believe that the Bible states that 1 day=a thousand years, then you are still being literal. I know that “literal” is recently being used in new ways, but in terms of literary interpretation, “literal” means interpreting the words as written. Interpreting one day to be a millennium is not a literal interpretation. In fact, it’s clear case of a metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/110 "2013-07-03T20:56:01Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I know that “literal” is recently being used in new ways, but in terms of literary interpretation, “literal” means interpreting the words as written. Interpreting one day to be a millennium is not a literal interpretation. In fact, it’s clear case of a metaphor. If the Bible says that a thousand years is as a day to God, and you believe that to be true, _then you are taking the Bible literally_. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/111 "2013-07-03T21:06:42Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I guess I would have to see you quote them. I guess you’re out of luck then, because I don’t have time for an extra homework assignment. > [@](#): > > I don’t think I claimed to know what “normal interpretation” is, I think it was you doing that. Actually it looks like it was **TonySinclair** who said > [@](#): > > The idea of Genesis being allegorical didn’t become widely accepted until it simply became too embarrassing for a scientifically literate person to bear. which is what I was refuting. It was widely (but not universally) accepted in the earliest centuries. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jewish scholarship was the same, but I haven’t studied in that area. And unfortunately, because this is an interesting thread, this is probably my last post in it. I’m headed out on vacation now to a cabin in the woods with no internet or even electricity until the 14th. Happy Independence Day to my fellow Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/112 "2013-07-03T21:16:27Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I guess you’re out of luck then, because I don’t have time for an extra homework assignment. That’s fine, I’ll just remain a doubting Thomas. > [@](#): > > Actually it looks like it was **TonySinclair** who said which is what I was refuting. It was widely (but not universally) accepted in the earliest centuries. I wouldn’t be surprised if Jewish scholarship was the same, but I haven’t studied in that area. Traditionally I think the Jews date the earth at ~5700 years based on a fairly literal interpretation of events. [http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If\_world\_is\_6000yrs\_old\_why\_Jewish\_calendar\_at\_5700](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_world_is_6000yrs_old_why_Jewish_calendar_at_5700) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/113 "2013-07-03T21:38:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If the Bible says that a thousand years is as a day to God, and you believe that to be true, _then you are taking the Bible literally_. Even if the Bible says to use a metaphor, it’s still a metaphorical interpretation, not a literal one. I’d take that as more evidence that the Bible should not interpreted literally. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/114 "2013-07-03T21:47:57Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I’d take that as more evidence that the Bible should not interpreted literally. I thought it was the author of 2 Peter doing his own post-hoc rationalizing as to why Jesus didn’t return for his 2nd coming like the gospel says he promised. It’s a pretty good meme, but still only gets you to a 6000 year old creation. Not that any of you liberal Christians care what words mean though. It’s all true to you, even when you know it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/115 "2013-07-05T06:48:30Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > No, but how I try to live my life is not changed whether a demon was actually cast into a herd of swine or not. There are places that offer “deliverance” from demons… if demons are real then there is the possibility that people today - perhaps even yourself - could be oppressed by them. e.g. > **[Luke 13:11 - Jesus Heals a Woman on the Sabbath](https://biblehub.com/luke/13-11.htm)** > > and a woman there had been disabled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was hunched over and could not stand up straight. > [@](#): > > a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. If you had schizophrenia and believed in demons you’d probably think that demons could be the cause of the voices (BTW I know of many people of schizophrenia due to having a mental illness and being in groups which involve mentally ill people) So then you’d try getting deliverance or an exorcism. BTW I know a guy who gets his wife to pray to Jesus whenever his voices are affecting him too much (e.g. when he wants to have a cigarette and the voices don’t want him to) ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/116 "2013-07-05T06:49:56Z")
BTW if you believe each day of creation was 1000 years, then plants were created 1000 years before the sun… ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/117 "2013-07-05T06:53:44Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > …Traditionally I think the Jews date the earth at ~5700 years based on a fairly literal interpretation of events. > > [http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If\_world\_is\_6000yrs\_old\_why\_Jewish\_calendar\_at\_5700](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_world_is_6000yrs_old_why_Jewish_calendar_at_5700) It would be mostly based on the genealogies… using them to create the calendar suggests they take those numbers seriously. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/118 "2013-07-05T10:18:29Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > BTW if you believe each day of creation was 1000 years, then plants were created 1000 years before the sun… This is a _non sequitur_. You addressed this thread to “Liberal Christians” who generally don’t play any of the literalist games with scripture. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/119 "2013-07-05T10:21:29Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > It would be mostly based on the genealogies… using them to create the calendar suggests they take those numbers seriously. Adherents of Judaism, like adherents of Christianity, come in a number of flavors, some of whom are literalist and some of whom are not. It is not accurate to claim that “Jews” are either literalist or not without defining which specific sect, (or even which specific school or synagogue), holds a particular belief. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507/120 "2013-07-05T10:33:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is a _non sequitur_. > > You addressed this thread to “Liberal Christians” who generally don’t play any of the literalist games with scripture. My reply was based on replies like Czarcasms: “If you believe that the Bible states that 1 day=a thousand years, then you are still being literal.” I’m saying that there are problems for anyone that might believe that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-christians-genealogies-in-the-bible/662507.md?page=7)