# Liberal equivalent to conservative preoccupation with 2nd amendment/paranoia about Obama taking guns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661 "2010-06-10T15:29:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/21 "2010-06-10T16:35:36Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > On the other hand, there’s no evidence that Obama is going to come and take everyone’s guns, nor is there any evidence to suggest that Obama intends to do any of the stuff the [NRA](http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html) says he would. In one of the articles about the militia protest that I linked to, it happened about the same time that Obama was signing a bill _supporting_ gun carrying. At the time of the election, Obama’s website said that both he and Biden supported the old Federal Assault Weapons Ban. This has since been removed, suggesting they may have changed their minds, but it was a legitimate point of concern. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/22 "2010-06-10T16:38:42Z")
I can’t speak for other liberals, but I really stocked up on words and punctuation while Bush was in office. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/23 "2010-06-10T16:38:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Your point, as I read it, was that conservatives believe wacky things, divorced from reality, and have irrational fears tied to a few of those, like gun control. Since it’s likely that the sort of liberals who also believe wacky things, divorced from reality, believe in the _same things_, gun control is probably a worry among liberals. Gay marriage is probably a worry among liberals. They’re in deathly fear that their own leaders will make it legal. > > But they also have fears like corporate control over government (which might take away their securities like the minimum wage, safety regulations, standardized working hours, etc.) or of a military-industrial complex that secretly runs everything. President Bush and Dick Cheney’s bonds with Big Oil struck panic through the democrats as proof that the military-industrial complex was moving in to establish some sort of Fascist state in the US. From OP: > [@](#): > > Let me stress “measurable.” It doesn’t have to prove that there is a link between Republican presidents and increased purchases/production/use of X, but it should make a strong suggestion, just as the information above to doesn’t prove anything. So I’m looking for some sort of action that can be observed on a large scale that is taken by a number of people, _probably_ as a result of an irrational belief about the other party. Moreover, many of the specific examples you gave are actually pretty high on the list of concerns among conservatives too. I think the difference lies in what they recommend be done about it. Take the military industrial complex. That was a concern first voiced by Eisenhower and now given new prominence by none other than the self-described Republican [SecDef Gates](http://www.defense.gov/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=1467). I’ve seen folks like McCain, Powell, Armitage, Wilkerson, Bacevich, Ron Paul, and others all voice concern over it. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/24 "2010-06-10T16:41:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You remember wrong, and if you read as far as the second paragraph of that story, you will see why. Rangel was trying to make a political point and did not want to bring back the draft. Of course it was political! Rangel knew full well his proposal would go nowhere. Nonetheless, he proposed a return to the draft so you are wrong. Rangel actually introduced a bill to reinstate the draft: > **[CNN.com - Rangel introduces bill to reinstate draft - Jan. 8, 2003](https://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/)** ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/25 "2010-06-10T16:44:12Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Nonetheless, he proposed a return to the draft so you are wrong. I’m not wrong. Rangel was making a point and did not want to bring back the draft. The Bush administration didn’t want to bring it back either. That was my original point: they never tried to bring back the draft, but they were repeatedly accused of plotting to do so. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/26 "2010-06-10T16:47:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In terms of one-issue crankery, pot legalization has a lot of currency on the left. I don’t know if you are referring to days of yore, but legalization of medical marijuana has considerable support [any way you slice it](http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=986). While legalization in general does show a partisan divide, [support in general is increasing](http://www.gallup.com/poll/123728/U.S.-Support-Legalizing-Marijuana-Reaches-New-High.aspx). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/27 "2010-06-10T16:49:18Z")
All of the good ones seem taken (I agree with abortion as being one of the biggies, as well as DtC’s comment about pot legalization, and the draft being a big talking point for liberals, especially when Bush was in office and things were going badly in Iraq), so how about these: The US is on the verge of invading Iran (any time now), and that Bush is planning to set aside the election and declare himself God Emperor (or something along those lines…granted, I seem to recall some loony righty types making similar claims about Clinton, but it seemed more widely circulated on the crazy liberal circuit than it was among the right wingers I knew when Clinton was in the top spot). 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/28 "2010-06-10T16:49:45Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Hmmm…I remember Charlie Rangel arguing that we should bring back the draft just a few years ago. Looks like the left was worried about the wrong party. > > [http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/19/ftn/main2199539.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/11/19/ftn/main2199539.shtml) From your link: > [@](#): > > He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve in uniform. Instead, “young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it’s our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals,” with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/29 "2010-06-10T16:55:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not wrong. Rangel was making a point and did not want to bring back the draft. The Bush administration didn’t want to bring it back either. That was my original point: they never tried to bring back the draft, but they were repeatedly accused of plotting to do so. You are incorrect that I remembered wrong. So, yes, you are wrong. I showed you the evidence that Rangel introduced the bill. Rangel has also argued for the draft on Face the Nation. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/30 "2010-06-10T16:57:23Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > From your link: What’s your point? Being drafted, even during time of war, did not mean that you would be fighting on the frontlines. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/31 "2010-06-10T16:59:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > All of the good ones seem taken (I agree with abortion as being one of the biggies, as well as DtC’s comment about pot legalization, and the draft being a big talking point for liberals, especially when Bush was in office and things were going badly in Iraq), so how about these: The US is on the verge of invading Iran (any time now), and that Bush is planning to set aside the election and declare himself God Emperor (or something along those lines…granted, I seem to recall some loony righty types making similar claims about Clinton, but it seemed more widely circulated on the crazy liberal circuit than it was among the right wingers I knew when Clinton was in the top spot). 😛 > > -XT This is exactly the kind of stuff I’m talking about. I don’t doubt that a lot of self-described liberals had these kinds of sentiments, especially about the authoritarian trajectory of certain Bush policies,\* but where is the evidence that large swaths or even a majority actually believed this kind of stuff? Is there any way to say, “Looking at this trend, one could make a very convincing argument that many within this political subset truly believe X”? - A number of people within Bush’s own administration were worried about their twisting of the law. Wilkerson, Armitage, Zellikow, the Leveretts, etc. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/32 "2010-06-10T17:01:02Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > What’s your point? Being drafted, even during time of war, did not mean that you would be fighting on the frontlines. Saying that young people would have to give “service” to their country seems distinctly different to me than saying “military service.” Unless “service” always means military service. I haven’t read the bill. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/33 "2010-06-10T17:07:21Z")
My two comments there were more tongue in cheek. I wasn’t asserting that a large number of liberals believed either, merely that there was a fairly vocal subset on the loony fringe of the left wing that did. Heck, there were a bunch of folks on this board who believed one or both of those things (and, for all I know, still do, as they breathlessly wait for the US to invade Iran any day now, or find out that Bush is actually still in charge and Obama is merely a puppet). Others have already brought up the stuff that is probably closer to the right wing preoccupation with the 2nd, the biggest one being abortion. Despite the Republicans having control of nearly all aspects of government (including, supposed control of the SCOTUS), the Presidency and control of the Congress, we STILL didn’t get an overturn of RvW (or prayer in school, another nail biting fear from the left after Bush’s election in 2000). It’s quite similar to the fear from the right that the gun grabbers are going to making serious plans to crank things back up, and with just as much justification IMHO (more really, since afaik there has been no serious challenge to RvW recently, while gun grabbing seems to always be on the agenda for some on the left…it’s a never ending battle). -XT ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/34 "2010-06-10T17:09:33Z")
> [@gitfiddle](#): > > Saying that young people would have to give “service” to their country seems distinctly different to me than saying “military service.” Unless “service” always means military service. > > I haven’t read the bill. I don’t really see a difference. Either way you are conscripted for service by your government. Is there any functional difference between service to your country and military support? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/35 "2010-06-10T17:14:30Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > You are incorrect that I remembered wrong. So, yes, you are wrong. I showed you the evidence that Rangel introduced the bill. Rangel has also argued for the draft on Face the Nation. We’re talking at cross purposes here. I know Rangel introduced the bill. I was saying you were wrong about the left ‘worrying about the wrong party.’ Since Rangel’s bill and statements were a political move and not support for the draft, they had nothing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![gitfiddle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@gitfiddle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gitfiddle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/36 "2010-06-10T17:20:23Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I don’t really see a difference. Either way you are conscripted for service by your government. Is there any functional difference between service to your country and military support? You have a point. When I see the draft, I think of obligatory military service. I would have very little problem with with a program that required service to the country for a certain amount of time, as long as they could choose between military service, peace corps type stuff, or domestic non-profit work. But, yes, I see your point. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/37 "2010-06-10T17:23:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We’re talking at cross purposes here. I know Rangel introduced the bill. I was saying you were wrong about the left ‘worrying about the wrong party.’ Since Rangel’s bill and statements were a political move and not support for the draft, they had nothing to worry about. Oh, that was tongue in cheek. I suppose I should have followed that comment up with a 🙂 That being said, you should be more careful in your choice of words. Saying that I remembered wrong suggests that the facts are incorrect. If you are arguing against my comment that the left was worried about the wrong party then you are saying that I AM wrong…not that I REMEMBERED wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/38 "2010-06-10T17:30:43Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > That being said, you should be more careful in your choice of words. Saying that I remembered wrong suggests that the facts are incorrect. If you are arguing against my comment that the left was worried about the wrong party then you are saying that I AM wrong…not that I REMEMBERED wrong. The wording about memory came from your post, and both the bill and the worrying took place in the past. But I’m glad we figured out what we were talking about. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/39 "2010-06-10T18:15:06Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Even in Canada it’s abortion. We’ve had a Conservative government for four years. The concern before they were elected was they’d create abortion law (Canada hasn’t any law of any sort concerning abortion.) The concern before they were re-elected was abortion. Yet the Conservatives have never said they would pass an abortion law, have never touched the issue, have never expressed any interest in doing anything about it, have no current plans to, obviously never will, and if they did would quite clearly lose a confidence vote in the House and lose the subsequent election. The chances of the Conservatives banning abortion are zero and the chances they’ll even TRY are one in a trillion. I agree, but it should be mentioned that the fear is that the Conservatives would restrict abortion _if they get a majority_. Harper’s government has shown hints of holding some radical right-wing ideas, and people are afraid of what they cannot do now, but could do if ever they get a majority government. Of course, in the case of abortion it’s probably not a worry as Canadians seem to be mostly in favour of it being legal. Many Conservative MPs are pro-choice themselves (and of course, many Liberal MPs are anti-abortion). But this said, hasn’t there been a law passed about making it a crime to harm a fetus in the commission of another crime? While of course that’s not really close to restricting abortion, many activist groups saw it as a step in the direction of granting a legal status to the fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661/40 "2010-06-10T18:44:16Z")
I’d say the liberal equivalent is class warfare, anti-corporatism, and a focus on the rich. The attention paid to CEO salaries is way out of proportion to the effect those salaries have on the lives of anyone else. The belief that the poor cannot get ahead without government help because of cabals of rich people. The idea that corporations have much more control over people’s lives than they do. The belief that society’s ills are largely the fault of the ‘rich’, and that they could all be fixed by simply making the rich pay their ‘fair share’. The belief that the rich own far more of the nation’s wealth than they do, and that they would run amok without strong government control over them. The energy spent denouncing Halliburton during the Bush administration is a good example of the anti-corporate fetish of the left. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-equivalent-to-conservative-preoccupation-with-2nd-amendment-paranoia-about-obama-taking-guns/542661.md?page=3)