# Liberal Guilt and the damage of PC doublespeak **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961 "2005-11-07T21:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/21 "2005-11-08T00:37:27Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I’m of the opinion that “political correctness” is little more than a bogeyman of the right. I don’t know of anyone who seriously uses PC in everyday speech; it only seems to get trotted out when a conservative wants to complain that it’s no longer socially acceptable to be a racist/sexist jerk. It still exists in colleges and during the interminable corporate awareness classes. (and of course at Environmental festivals) Jim ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/22 "2005-11-08T00:54:49Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > It still exists in colleges and during the interminable corporate awareness classes. (and of course at Environmental festivals) Aside from the usual “sexual harassment training” and “cultural sensitivity” classes (which all boil down to “don’t be an asshole at work”), I’ve never seen any instances of political correctness in a workplace, at least of the “You must refer to these ethnic groups as ‘\-American’” stereotypical PC-ness. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/23 "2005-11-08T00:58:59Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Aside from the usual “sexual harassment training” and “cultural sensitivity” classes (which all boil down to “don’t be an asshole at work”), I’ve never seen any instances of political correctness in a workplace, at least of the “You must refer to these ethnic groups as ‘\-American’” stereotypical PC-ness. Did you see my post, immediately above yours? Until this semester at college, I wouldn’t have believed it either–and I previously majored in political economy at a college dominated by unreconstructed Marxists. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/24 "2005-11-08T00:59:46Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Aside from the usual “sexual harassment training” and “cultural sensitivity” classes (which all boil down to “don’t be an asshole at work”), I’ve never seen any instances of political correctness in a workplace, at least of the “You must refer to these ethnic groups as ‘\-American’” stereotypical PC-ness. I am happy for you, my company is apparently 10 years behind the times. We probably had some incident I am not aware of, because we had the whole PCism class just last year and the Tool Room was made to take down tool calendars of Models in Bikini’s. Pretty much the same one I went through a dozen times in the late 80’s and 90’s. I may be wrong about the colleges; I am guilty of extrapolating from a small sample. Jim ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/25 "2005-11-08T01:06:46Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > This is far and away the awesomest fun fact of the day for me. > > For the first time in my life, this semester I’ve encountered people who use “politically correct” as a **positive** term. Two separate professors at my school (Western Carolina University for our home viewers) have chided me for not using politically correct language. My sin? Referring to black students as, get ready for this, **black students** instead of African-American students or (I shit you not) “Students of African-American Descent.” > > I pointed out to one professor that Jonathan Kozol refers to black students, Jesse Jackson refers to black students, **Manning Fucking Marable** refers to black students. I gave her links. She breezily dismissed this, saying that just because they’d used these terms didn’t mean that that’s how SoAAD wanted to be referred to. > > The upshot of all this is that it’s a petty fucking issue. So I’ve got one professor who’s ridiculous, and another who’s a fantastic professor but who’s self-conscious about her language use and has surrendered judgment on the matter to insane bureaucrats. Who the hell cares? > > **mswas** , I wonder whether you could find a dozen homeless people, a dozen AIDS victims, OR a dozen rape survivors in this country who would agree with your OP. Hell, I’d settle for one. > > Daniel You definitely need to fuck with this woman. Wait til she uses “gyp” or “welsh” or anything else and make a big fricking deal out of it with marching students of something-american descent chanting “one two three four we don’t want your racism anymore”. Extra points if the rhymes scan badly. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/26 "2005-11-08T01:08:20Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Did you see my post, immediately above yours? Until this semester at college, I wouldn’t have believed it either–and I previously majored in political economy at a college dominated by unreconstructed Marxists. > > Daniel Antioch? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/27 "2005-11-08T01:09:46Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Antioch? Evergreen. And I think there’s about zero chance of either professor using a word like “gyp” or “welsh.” They may be really out of touch in these areas, but they’re pretty consistent, at least. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/28 "2005-11-08T01:14:45Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > By the way for fun try being one of the few republicans in an environmental group. It was tough 10 years ago, now you don’t even mention it with Bush in office. Or if you’re attending an evangelical church, say something during fellowship hour about what a great President you think Kerry would have been. IOW, political correctness is alive and well in many different environments. There are both left and right varieties of it. It’s just that nobody’s bothered to write books about right-wing PC; it’s alive and well, but those of us on the left mostly have more important things to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/29 "2005-11-08T01:18:18Z")
Well I disagree that this topic is dead in the water. However, I feel like getting an honest debate about a problem that was never solved which people view as a “trend”, isn’t going to be possible. Try talking about a free market in a room full of ‘progressive lefties’ and you’ll know exactly what I mean. I still maintain that engineering the language to suit an agenda leads to denial, and therefore is one of the worst problems in our society. You may think that engineering newspeak doesn’t rate as a problem, and I hope for you that this is true. I think it is the subtle lingual cues that is seperating us. However, I will go look for a more nuanced discussion elsewhere. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/30 "2005-11-08T01:23:01Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I disagree that this topic is dead in the water. However, I feel like getting an honest debate about a problem that was never solved which people view as a “trend”, isn’t going to be possible. You posted. Other people responded. And then you declare you’re taking your ball and going home? Cute. > [@mswas](#): > > I still maintain that engineering the language to suit an agenda leads to denial, and therefore is one of the worst problems in our society. The agenda, as has been pointed out 5 times already, is to be more civil to your fellow man. I can’t see that as being a problem. > [@mswas](#): > > However, I will go look for a more nuanced discussion elsewhere. How about another board. Where everyone agrees with you and you can live your life free from the thoughts of others that challenge your own view of the world. May I suggest Hannity? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/31 "2005-11-08T01:23:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The OP lives in a country struggling with genuine racial inequality, poverty, crime, assaults on common freedoms by the central government, 40 million people with no health insurance, a staggering debt problem, terrorism, quagmire wars, and various other sorts of social strife, and he thinks political correctness is the worst problem ya got? For some reason I view engineering the language to suit one’s propaganda as causal to all of the things you’ve mentioned above. Everything you have described is a symptom. Without a clearing of the propagandized language we have accepted, we can’t possibly hope to adequately address those issues. If people do not think that the feudal aristocracy invented rules of etiquette in order to keep the serfs in line, then we possibly can’t have anything to talk about, because that was an integral part of the tradition. I heard some great quote about it that I wish I had handy, about how the customs aren’t supposed to make sense, they are supposed to confuse the the lower classes. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/32 "2005-11-08T01:28:24Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The agenda, as has been pointed out 5 times already, is to be more civil to your fellow man. I cut all the chaff from your post. I’ll adress this part. The agenda is to be civil, certainly, the methods are NOT WORKING. The answer isn’t ‘redefine the language’ the answer is ‘just be more civil to your fellow man’. There isn’t more than that, and building it more than that only causes further problems, like confusing people as to what the proper forms of etiquette are. Because as has been pointed out in this thread, the etiquette is based on fads. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/33 "2005-11-08T01:37:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > However, I will go look for a more nuanced discussion elsewhere. There’s a certain irony in someone objecting to political correctness then, when his own objection is objected to, declaring that he’s going to go find somewhere else where he won’t meet with so many objections. Yes, it’s a problem. So is the military’s insistence on referring to “operations” instead of “attacks” or “gaining control of an area” instead of “killing 16 soldiers and 20 civilians.” Personally, I’d rather focus on the military’s inaccurate description of its own acts: these seem to me to be the greater problem. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/34 "2005-11-08T01:45:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > For some reason I view engineering the language to suit one’s propaganda as causal to all of the things you’ve mentioned above. Which might have been a clearer point if you had not muddied your presentation with: - Errors of fact regarding the source and use of etiquette; - A decided Right-wing bias to your presentation (attacking “PC” while ignoring the attacks on civility and attempts to shape the language that emanate from the Right); - And your odd self-hijacking attack on various charitable groups (that are hardly above reproach, but that are certainly not part of “shaping language”). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/35 "2005-11-08T01:48:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well I disagree that this topic is dead in the water. However, I feel like getting an honest debate about a problem that was never solved which people view as a “trend”, isn’t going to be possible. How about showing us some concrete examples of the grave real-world harm political correctness is causing? So far all you’ve given us is that you feel uncomfortable talking to black people for fear you’ll accidentally give offense, and some incomprehensible stuff about it causing corruption at the Red Cross. Unless you’d like to talk about the dangers of euphemism in general, perhaps? Are you similarly worried about such usages as “stress position” and “collateral damage”? > [@](#): > > Try talking about a free market in a room full of ‘progressive lefties’ and you’ll know exactly what I mean. Aggressive disagreement with a particular position is not “political correctness”. Can you give some specific examples of how these “progressive lefties” attempted to enforce a speech code on your economic theories? Were you told terms like “trickle down” and “regressive tax” were offensive to their ears? What is the politically correct term for “corporation”? > [@](#): > > I still maintain that engineering the language to suit an agenda leads to denial, and therefore is one of the worst problems in our society. You may think that engineering newspeak doesn’t rate as a problem, and I hope for you that this is true. I think it is the subtle lingual cues that is seperating us. As I said, if you want to talk about the dangers of euphemism in general there might be some space for an interesting debate. For example, how do you feel about the coded use of the term “family values” to mean “opposed to homosexuals”? But if you’re just going to ride the old “why can’t I say ‘nigger’ isn’t this a free country” hobbyhorse then I’ll think you’ll find the discussion has largely moved on. > [@](#): > > However, I will go look for a more nuanced discussion elsewhere. That’s pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/36 "2005-11-08T01:49:08Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Yes, it’s a problem. So is the military’s insistence on referring to “operations” instead of “attacks” or “gaining control of an area” instead of “killing 16 soldiers and 20 civilians.” Personally, I’d rather focus on the military’s inaccurate description of its own acts: these seem to me to be the greater problem. Hmm. This is pretty incoherent, isn’t it? Can we all pretend I didn’t post this? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/37 "2005-11-08T01:59:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Or if you’re attending an evangelical church, say something during fellowship hour about what a great President you think Kerry would have been. > …snip… Brother, I suspect you have got it worse. At least the old line liberals won’t call me Satan or ignore all arguments and say it is a “Matter of Faith”. 😉 > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Hmm. This is pretty incoherent, isn’t it? Can we all pretend I didn’t post this? > > Daniel Post what, I don’t see a thing. 😉 Jim ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/38 "2005-11-08T02:23:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > For some reason I view engineering the language to suit one’s propaganda as causal to all of the things you’ve mentioned above. Everything you have described is a symptom. Without a clearing of the propagandized language we have accepted, we can’t possibly hope to adequately address those issues. Tell you what: why don’t you think long and hard about what those reasons might be, then get back to us. Because that’s the silliest goddamn thing I’ve ever heard. > [@](#): > > If people do not think that the feudal aristocracy invented rules of etiquette in order to keep the serfs in line, then we possibly can’t have anything to talk about, because that was an integral part of the tradition. Do you have anything vaguely resembling evidence to back this up? Because what I just said about your last paragraph? That’s no longer the case. _This_ is now the silliest goddamn thing I’ve ever heard. > [@](#): > > I heard some great quote about it that I wish I had handy, about how the customs aren’t supposed to make sense, they are supposed to confuse the the lower classes. I think you’re going to need a slightly more hefty reference book here than Bartlett’s Familiar. Next time, try showing up with an argument. All you’ve got here is a conclusion, with precious little to support it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/39 "2005-11-08T03:02:59Z")
The use of “liberal guilt” probably should’ve tipped everybody off. I’ve never heard anyone who was interested in starting a discussion (instead of a harangue) use that phrase. Likewise, I have never heard anyone say “handicapable” in earnest. If I didn’t post to this board, I would have had precisely one conversation in my life about what black people should be called, and zero about any other group. (That one conversation was short, too.) I see it portrayed in television comedies all the time, but not in reality. I don’t like euphemisms at all, but **mswas** seems to be badly overstating all of these problems. Political correctness is not a new problem. It’s an old joke. There’s nothing wrong in principle with calling people what they want to be called. It goes too far sometimes, but what doesn’t? We’re at a stage now where anytime somebody doesn’t like or understand a term, especially if it’s recently coined, they throw their arms up and yell “Political Correctness! Political Correctness!” > [@mswas](#): > > Now everyone has to walk on eggshells, and navigate an unfathomable idea of etiquette to actually discuss anything. I don’t know when or in what situations you talk to black people. But not knowing if I can say “nigger” or “black” has never caused me a problem in talking to any black person. One of the reporters I work with is Latino or Hispanic. I don’t know which one of those things he actually is, I don’t know which country he or his family is from, and none of it has ever been a problem in our communication. I don’t know what you think “white academic society” expects of you, but I have a feeling it’s largely in your head. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Did you see my post, immediately above yours? Until this semester at college, I wouldn’t have believed it either–and I previously majored in political economy at a college dominated by unreconstructed Marxists. Ah, mainstream liberal thought. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961/40 "2005-11-08T03:04:56Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Likewise, I have never heard anyone say “handicapable” in earnest. I can really only imagine one person using this word. > [@](#): > > One of the reporters I work with is Latino or Hispanic. The only thing that matters is, is he a Mexican or a Mexican’t? Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-guilt-and-the-damage-of-pc-doublespeak/329961.md?page=3)