# Liberal-hater shoots up Unitarian church, kills two **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000 "2008-07-28T23:41:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/61 "2008-07-29T14:20:38Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] So inciting mass murder is constitutionally protected? šŸ˜• [/QUOTE] Advocating violent or otherwise illegal action \*in general terms \* is constitutionally protected speech, ie. ā€œRise up and overthrow the government!ā€, ā€œKill the liberals!ā€, ā€œRob Jew banks!ā€, etc. Advocating specific violent or otherwise illegal actions is not protected speech- ā€œRise up and overthrow the government starting with the Wisconsin state legislature on Tuesday at 11:30am!ā€, ā€œKill that liberal over there!ā€, ā€œRob this Jew bank right now!ā€, etc. The dividing line is called the ā€œclear and present dangerā€ test, which stems from (SCOTUS) Justice Holmesā€™ opinion in Shenck v. US: > [@](#): > > The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. ETA: I think I misspelled Shenckā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/62 "2008-07-29T14:23:11Z")
Itā€™s worth noting that the hate radioā€™s messages and [songs](http://en.afrik.com/article13688.html) have been found guilty of inciting genocide in Rwanda. There is precedent for holding public figures responsible for their words. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/63 "2008-07-29T14:24:29Z")
Just in case anyone is interested, [here](http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml) are the UU principles and sources. I donā€™t think the principles are inherently liberal and, in fact, similar ideas are probably espoused in most religions. The culture of UUism is definitely liberal, though. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/64 "2008-07-29T14:25:01Z")
So Iā€™m in prison, and the other cons roll up to me to see what Iā€™m made of. Which answer would better improve my status and safeguard my rectum when asked ā€œwhat are you in forā€ (A) ā€œā€˜Hate Crimeā€™ against a bunch of fag-loving liberalsā€ (B) ā€œI shot up a childrenā€™s production of Annieā€ ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/65 "2008-07-29T14:38:57Z")
[QUOTE=Long Time First Time] Itā€™s worth noting that the hate radioā€™s messages and [songs](http://en.afrik.com/article13688.html) have been found guilty of inciting genocide in Rwanda. There is precedent for holding public figures responsible for their words. [/QUOTE] Pfft. This is America. The only public figures ever held responsible for their words are the editorial staff of the _National Enquirer_. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/66 "2008-07-29T14:41:36Z")
[QUOTE=Airman Doors, USAF] It doesnā€™t matter why he did it. Why do we dignify these people with justifications? Charge him, convict him, put him on the gurney, shoot him up, and bury his ass. Other than that I donā€™t want to hear anything about him. Heā€™s a scumbag. Nothing else needs to be said. [/QUOTE] Iā€™ll stick to my liberal ideals and not wish the death penalty on the asshole. I do hope that he gets the help he needs so that he can fully appreciate what a complete douchebag he is, and has to live with that for a very long time. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/67 "2008-07-29T14:47:59Z")
As a UU myself, I feel I must reconcile the right to free speech (even hate speech) with the fact that it may possibly incite kill-crazy home-grown terrorist shit-for-brains who deserve to be locked up in tiny cages 23 hours a day for life. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/68 "2008-07-29T14:56:41Z")
Iā€™m kind of surprised by the ā€œRush made him do it!ā€ attitude that seems to be popping up in this thread. I strongly suspect that most of you (saying that) are the same people who pointed out how ridiculous it was to blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shooting- and I donā€™t see this situation is a million miles away from that one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/69 "2008-07-29T15:12:22Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Iā€™m kind of surprised by the ā€œRush made him do it!ā€ attitude that seems to be popping up in this thread. I strongly suspect that most of you (saying that) are the same people who pointed out how ridiculous it was to blame Marilyn Manson for the Columbine shooting- and I donā€™t see this situation is a million miles away from that one. [/QUOTE] Not that Iā€™m on the Blame Rush bandwagon, but Marilyn Manson never advocated shooting up schools. Some right wingers (not including Limbaugh, as far as I know) actually _have_ advocated violence against liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/70 "2008-07-29T15:23:08Z")
[QUOTE=C3] Legally, according to Danielā€™s link, religion is a protected class and political affiliations are not. So, when the FBI is trying to figure out whether or not to charge this man with a hate crime, they are going to have to untwine his motivations and decide whether or not this was primarily a crime against people of a certain religion or people of a certain political persuasion. [/QUOTE] I donā€™t think they will. Look at that link again, this time with boldness: > [@FBI](#): > > A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a ā€œcriminal offense against a person or property motivated **in whole or in part** by an offenderā€™s bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.ā€ Hate itself is not a crimeā€”and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties. If it was motivated IN PART by a bias against the religion, thatā€™s all it takes, according to the FBI. Whether itā€™s the primary, secondary, tertiary, or septuary motivation doesnā€™t matter, as long as it was part of the motive for the attack. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/71 "2008-07-29T15:25:54Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Not that Iā€™m on the Blame Rush bandwagon, but Marilyn Manson never advocated shooting up schools. Some right wingers (not including Limbaugh, as far as I know) actually _have_ advocated violence against liberals. [/QUOTE] It wasnā€™t the best comparison, given that neither party has advocated violence in that way. A better one would have been between Anne Coulter, who is being blamed here, and the musicians who have advocated violence against cops, or against homosexuals, or against homosexual cops, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/72 "2008-07-29T15:31:29Z")
[QUOTE=villa] It wasnā€™t the best comparison, given that neither party has advocated violence in that way. A better one would have been between Anne Coulter, who is being blamed here, and the musicians who have advocated violence against cops, or against homosexuals, or against homosexual cops, for that matter. [/QUOTE] I donā€™t know of any musicians whoā€™ve advocated violence against cops in the manner you suggest, though - even _Cop Killer, I Shot the Sheriff_ and the dozens of songs about Pretty Boy Floyd and Bonnie and Clyde and so on killing LEOs were presented in narrative form, rather than as a really long imperative. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/73 "2008-07-29T15:55:22Z")
How fragile freedom of speech is, that the acts of an obvious lunatic can spur many here to seriously challenge it. ā˜¹ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/74 "2008-07-29T15:56:50Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] How fragile freedom of speech is, that the acts of an obvious lunatic can spur many here to seriously challenge it. ā˜¹ [/QUOTE] Iā€™m not challenging freedom of speech at all. Iā€™m not calling for any government censure of Coulter et al. Iā€™m challenging freedom of responsibility from speech: I think we, as a society, ought to (without the governmentā€™s involvement) hold Savage and friends responsible for their moral savagery, using our words. And dollars. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/75 "2008-07-29T16:02:10Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Iā€™m not challenging freedom of speech at all. Iā€™m not calling for any government censure of Coulter et al. Iā€™m challenging freedom of responsibility from speech: I think we, as a society, ought to (without the governmentā€™s involvement) hold Savage and friends responsible for their moral savagery, using our words. And dollars. Daniel [/QUOTE] Savage already has a base of fans willing to **support** his moral savagery with dollars and I see no way to change that. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/76 "2008-07-29T16:03:12Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] Iā€™m not challenging freedom of speech at all. Iā€™m not calling for any government censure of Coulter et al. Iā€™m challenging freedom of responsibility from speech: I think we, as a society, ought to (without the governmentā€™s involvement) hold Savage and friends responsible for their moral savagery, using our words. And dollars. Daniel [/QUOTE] Then my comment isnā€™t directed at you - but you canā€™t deny that by ā€œresponsibleā€ at least some in this thread mean ā€œcriminallyā€. Example: > [@](#): > > Itā€™s worth noting that the hate radioā€™s messages and songs have been found guilty of inciting genocide in Rwanda. > > There is precedent for holding public figures responsible for their words. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/77 "2008-07-29T16:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Savage already has a base of fans willing to **support** his moral savagery with dollars and I see no way to change that. [/QUOTE] Point out that when you talk about the mental defects of liberalism, it can convince mental defects like this to kill liberals. That might start. Or it might not. But it wonā€™t hurt. Edit: **Malthus** , youā€™re right. I was trying to clarify my position, just in case you did think I meant criminal liability. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/78 "2008-07-29T16:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] I donā€™t know of any musicians whoā€™ve advocated violence against cops in the manner you suggest, though - even _Cop Killer, I Shot the Sheriff_ and the dozens of songs about Pretty Boy Floyd and Bonnie and Clyde and so on killing LEOs were presented in narrative form, rather than as a really long imperative. [/QUOTE] Iā€™m sure I could find some anarchist oriented punk stuff if I looked hard enoughā€¦ Not that it bothers me - it is pretty pure political speech in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/79 "2008-07-29T20:45:50Z")
Youā€™re a fucking retard, **Vinyl Turnip** , I grew up in one of THE most conservative states in the US in a town of about 4000 and attended church every week (sometimes twice), so I know what the fuck Iā€™m talking about here. Nobody is carrying guns to church alright? Your stupid fucking wet-dream fantasy DOESNā€™T EXIST. Why the fuck would you bring a gun to church of all places? Iā€™m glad you wrote that bullshit, so I have it confirmed now that youā€™re pretty much fucking clueless. For those dopers who havenā€™t grown up in the most conservative of conservative and attended church on a regular fucking basis, this asshole is clueless. Such a church doesnā€™t exist. Itā€™s just a part of **VTā€™s** juvenile desire for vigilante justice. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000/80 "2008-07-29T20:54:38Z")
**Vinyl Turnip** ā€™s post went so far over your head it hit LEO. In other words: itā€™s a joke, dumbass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-hater-shoots-up-unitarian-church-kills-two/458000.md?page=5)