# Liberal US dopers. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689 "2009-04-29T01:15:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/1 "2009-04-29T01:15:38Z")
I’ve seen some people here say that they would like the US to become a lot more liberal. What changes in law and policy would make you happy? There are a few things I can think of: Gay marriage and adoption legalized in all 50 states. And end to intelligent design being taught in public schools. Legalizing pot. Universal health care. An undisputed pro-choice legal victory in the abortion debate. And I’m guessing laws that would make unions stronger. What else would you like to see happen? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/2 "2009-04-29T01:22:41Z")
Lots and lots and lots of regulation on industry in general, and banks in particular. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/3 "2009-04-29T01:29:01Z")
I’d go for everything on the list except UHC and legislation of stronger unions…does that mean I can be a liberal too? -XT ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/4 "2009-04-29T01:30:03Z")
What type of regulation? I assume you don’t mean regulations just for the hell of it. More to the point, what type of regulations that don’t currently exist? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/5 "2009-04-29T01:34:00Z")
An end to capital punishment. And, I don’t know why this has become the domain of the liberals, but a balanced budget. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/6 "2009-04-29T01:34:48Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > What else would you like to see happen? [ul] [li]free college tuition[/li][li]free day care for children[/li][li]free nursing care for the elderly[/li][li]30-hour work week instead of 40-hour work week[/li][li]guaranteed job security for life[/li][/ul] _[I think everyone including hard core Ayn Randians would like to have all of the above. Who wouldn’t want free stuff?]_ Other items: [ul] [li]salary caps[/li][li]corporate profit cap[/li][li]inherited wealth redistributed[/li][li]less military spending[/li][li]more environment spending[/li][/ul] I’m not sure what value there is in itemizing the liberal agenda. I think everyone already knows what the list is. Sorta like itemizing the seven days of the week – everybody already knows it’s Sunday, Monday, Tue, etc. Am I missing the point of this exercise? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Gui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@El\_Gui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Gui)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/7 "2009-04-29T01:37:56Z")
I forget the case, but if I remember correctly, there was a Supreme Court decision which somehow gave Corporations, “personhood” status. Ok, here it is: > **[Corporate personhood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood)** > > Corporate personhood or juridical personality is the legal notion that a juridical person such as a corporation, separately from its associated human beings (like owners, managers, or employees), has at least some of the legal rights and responsibilities enjoyed by natural persons. In most countries, a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued. > Granting non-human entities personhood is a Western concept applied to corpor... So, prohibiting corporations from making donations to political campaigns is a violation of the corporations “First Amendment” rights. I just don’t get it. Also, I don’t like how funds are distributed to schools (those in wealthier districts getting more from local tax revenue and vice versa). Oh, and free University education to all that are qualified. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/8 "2009-04-29T01:43:40Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > [ul] > [li]free college tuition[/li][li]free day care for children[/li][li]free nursing care for the elderly[/li][li]30-hour work week instead of 40-hour work week[/li][li]guaranteed job security for life[/li][/ul] > _[I think everyone including hard core Ayn Randians would like to have all of the above. Who wouldn’t want free stuff?]_ > > Other items: > > [ul] > [li]salary caps[/li][li]corporate profit cap[/li][li]inherited wealth redistributed[/li][li]less military spending[/li][li]more environment spending[/li][/ul] > I’m not sure what value there is in itemizing the liberal agenda. I think everyone already knows what the list is. Sorta like itemizing the seven days of the week – everybody already knows it’s Sunday, Monday, Tue, etc. Am I missing the point of this exercise? This is a legitimate question for me, if that’s what you’re getting at. I have a good idea of a what a much more liberal America would look like, but at the same time, not being a liberal myself, I’m sure that there are plenty of things that would never occur to me to change. Mainly, I’m thinking about dopers who, when news comes out about such things as gay marriages gaining ground, or Obama saying that the justice department will only go after people who break both state and federal laws, go, that’s a nice start, but I want our country to go a lot harder to the left. It’s basically a poll to satisfy my curiosity, and nothing else. I only put it GD simply because I have a strong feeling it would wind up in here if I placed it in a different forum. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/9 "2009-04-29T01:52:11Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’d go for everything on the list except UHC and legislation of stronger unions…does that mean I can be a liberal too? > > -XT There are some things on the list that I agree with too. And while I’m fine with some shifts to the left, I personally don’t want to see the country over-all go to far to the left, but there are plenty here who disagree and wish to see this country go a lot further left, than even Obama is willing to take us. Actually there are those who see Obama as centrist, or near centrist. And it’s those people who I’d like to hear from to find out how they would like America be. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/10 "2009-04-29T01:57:42Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > [ul] > [li]free college tuition[/li][li]free day care for children[/li][li]free nursing care for the elderly[/li][li]30-hour work week instead of 40-hour work week[/li][li]guaranteed job security for life[/li][/ul] > _[I think everyone including hard core Ayn Randians would like to have all of the above. Who wouldn’t want free stuff?]_ I wouldn’t. There is no free stuff. Who pays for all this? Who does all the work that all this stuff requires if no one can work more than 30 hours a week\*? Who is going to guarantee the job for all these people? Who is going to pay for all the people who have guaranteed jobs when some of those people a) have nothing to do or b) can’t actually do the job that they are guaranteed? How are you going to enforce guaranteed jobs? Make employers hire everyone who applies for a job? How exactly would this work? Who is going to pay the teachers and day care workers? On edit, forgot to add: What about people who will not work? I’ve known a few. Slee \*Do you think there are enough doctors so that if you limit doctors to 30 hours a week they will still be able to serve all the patients that need assistance? Will we just give out degrees to anyone so that we have enough doctors? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/11 "2009-04-29T02:02:24Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > [ul] > [li]free college tuition[/li][li]free day care for children[/li][li]free nursing care for the elderly[/li][li]30-hour work week instead of 40-hour work week[/li][li]guaranteed job security for life[/li][/ul] > _[I think everyone including hard core Ayn Randians would like to have all of the above. Who wouldn’t want free stuff?]_ > > Other items: > > [ul] > [li]salary caps[/li][li]corporate profit cap[/li][li]inherited wealth redistributed[/li][li]less military spending[/li][li]more environment spending[/li][/ul] > I’m not sure what value there is in itemizing the liberal agenda. I think everyone already knows what the list is. Sorta like itemizing the seven days of the week – everybody already knows it’s Sunday, Monday, Tue, etc. Am I missing the point of this exercise? I consider myself a liberal (especially if the definition is “those who see Obama as a moderate”), and I disagree with every item on that list except less military spending. I think the premise of the thread–that there is a unified vision of on the left of where the country should go–is wrong. Only a lot of fractured individual visions. That’s what political parties do…they aggregate opinions. The aggregate opinion of the left is something close to the DNC platform, I would think. The aggregate opinion of the further left is something like Nader’s platform. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/12 "2009-04-29T02:06:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’d go for everything on the list except UHC and legislation of stronger unions…does that mean I can be a liberal too? IMO, no… because the economic bullet points overshadow the morality bullet points. If people had a choice between free health care vs legalizing marijuana, most would rather have free health care. I think the same outcome if it was a choice between guaranteed job benefits vs abortion rights/freedoms. It seems like the # of people who have jobs outnumber the # of pregnant women that have to wrestle with a choice of delivering a fetus. The morality bullet points are just side issues. Today’s society is a product of 21st century thinking and that thinking is focused on materialism: give me a high paying job and provide me with free healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/13 "2009-04-29T02:10:18Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > The morality bullet points are just side issues. Today’s society is a product of 21st century thinking and that thinking is focused on materialism: give me a high paying job and provide me with free healthcare. So…you made the bullet lists because you consider yourself a liberal and think all of those ideas are peachy keen, or because that’s your perception of liberal ideals? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/14 "2009-04-29T02:11:48Z")
> [@Nobody](#): > > I’ve seen some people here say that they would like the US to become a lot more liberal. What changes in law and policy would make you happy? There are a few things I can think of: > > Gay marriage and adoption legalized in all 50 states. > And end to intelligent design being taught in public schools. > Legalizing pot. > Universal health care. > An undisputed pro-choice legal victory in the abortion debate. > And I’m guessing laws that would make unions stronger. > > What else would you like to see happen? I guess Im posting to the wrong thread but… As a moderate, the only issue that I really disagree with is the universal heath care, and the only reason I disagree with it is that I’ve yet to hear a proposal that would adequately fund such a system while maintaining a reasonable level of long term care. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/15 "2009-04-29T02:16:28Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think the premise of the thread–that there is a unified vision of on the left of where the country should go–is wrong. Only a lot of fractured individual visions. Is there or was there a “unified” vision of any serious subject ever in the history of mankind? Judaism? Nope… splinters off into several major sects. There were 4 around the time of Christianity. Christianity? Nope… Paul was arguing with other Jews about circumcision. Marxism? Nope… Karl Marx, “if that is Marxism, then I am not a Marxist!” Pluto’s status as a planet? Even apolitical astronomers can’t agree on scientific classification. Mathematics seems to have some sliver of agreement. I can’t think of anything else outside of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/16 "2009-04-29T02:24:17Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > or because that’s your perception of liberal ideals? That is my understanding of liberal ideas, thinking, wishlist items. I don’t understand the motivation of your question. Is Liberalism actually some kind of secret code that nobody knows unless they join a club? **Nobody** asked a straightforward question and it looks like he got some straightforward answers. It’s not really a matter of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/17 "2009-04-29T02:28:08Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > That is my understanding of liberal ideas, thinking, wishlist items. > > I don’t understand the motivation of your question. Is Liberalism actually some kind of secret code that nobody knows unless they join a club? > > **Nobody** asked a straightforward question and it looks like he got some straightforward answers. It’s not really a matter of debate. Because a conservative explaining what liberals want is sort of like a Baptist explaining Catholicism. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/18 "2009-04-29T02:38:49Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Because a conservative explaining what liberals want is sort of like a Baptist explaining Catholicism. Give me a break. Average intelligent liberals can articulate the conservative agenda. Likewise, intelligent conservatives (which I’m not) can list the liberal bullet points. This is not like a male trying to describe the inner feelings of a woman. This is not rocket science type of thinking. Liberals have a certain wishlist – list them. Conservatives have a certain wishlist – list them. What is that magical hidden mystery that you’re trying to inject into this? And btw, I’ve had my best teachings on Christianity explained by a Jewish professor. Sometimes, the outsiders can explain things better **because** they are the outsider. You don’t seem to take this into account. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/19 "2009-04-29T02:41:25Z")
90% tax on the highest incomes. Increased taxes for incomes over $50,000 or so. Single-payer universal healthcare. Massively increased regulation of pharmaceutical industry Tort reform - including caps on damages. Free secondary education. MASSIVELY increased funding of infrastructure, 21st century technologies, family planning, NIH, DOE, NSF Mandatory service for 18-20 y.o.'s Increased and subsidized physician and nursing education Near total transparency in finances of all publicly traded corporations Amnesty program for undocumented immigrants Massively increased spending on social services and vocational training to reduce prison and homeless population. Regionally planned development. Reduce criminal penalties for most drugs. Increase penalties for violent crimes. Mandatory parole supervision for all released offenders. Agree with: giant death tax. Agree with: end capital punishment. Make immigration process easier for students and high tech workers. Massive regulation of gun manufacturers, gun retailers and tobacco industry. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689/20 "2009-04-29T03:05:10Z")
Where’s the liberal consensus on foreign policy? Do liberals feel that we should form alliances with other countries? If so, what countries and what should be the terms of these alliances? Do liberals feel that it is a legitimate foreign policy goal to stop countries from developing nuclear weapons? If so, what steps would they take to further this goal? Do liberals favor intervention in nations where genocide and/or mass atrocities are occurring? Under what circumstances? Does intervention include the use of military force? How do liberals feel on unilateral action by the United States? In what kinds of situations, if any, is it appropriate for the United States to act even without the approval of other nations? What is the liberal consensus on cultural relativism as a foreign policy issue? Should we tolerate practices in other countries that we find offensive? Or should we express our offense and, if so, by what means? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-us-dopers/494689.md?page=2)