# Liberal, would you kindly give it a rest about Andrew Jackson? (mild) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347 "2008-01-05T00:17:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/61 "2008-01-05T17:50:36Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Well, or most of the Presidents of the 18th and 19th centuries. None of them have particularly admirable records when it comes to dealing with the Indians. There’s a reason Helen Hunt Jackson called her look at US-Indian relations “A Century of Dishonor” [/QUOTE] I’m pretty sure that, as President, William Henry Harrison did nothing dishonorable to the various Indian nations. ETA: Unless you consider three hour long inauguration speeches to be a crime against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![lobstermobster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobstermobster/32/10033_2.png) [@lobstermobster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobstermobster)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/62 "2008-01-05T17:54:07Z")
You don’t see Chrifties (a christmas fifty) that much outside the holiday. The night after Chrimma I went to a bar and everyone had chrifties they had gotten from their families. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/63 "2008-01-05T19:16:56Z")
[QUOTE=bdgr] It has NOT A DAMN thing to do with todays standards. The murdering backstabbing bastard violated the laws and standards of HIS time. Today’s standards don’t enter into it THIS IS AS OFFENSIVE as making excuses for Hitler by saying “He made the trains run on time, and we cant judge what he did to the jews by todays standards” . [/QUOTE] **OtakuLoki**"_The biggest reason that I dislike the hatred all going towards Andrew Jackson is because he then becomes a scapegoat, in the ancient sense of the word: a sacrifice for the communal guilt. Blaming any single President for the Trail of Tears ignores the reality that the US wasn’t willing (nor, do I think it was able) to police itself to respect the Cherokee land claims. And the majority of the population of the States acquiesced to this. The Trail of Tears was not imposed upon the Cherokee solely by the actions of Andrew Jackson."_ \*\* Captain Amazing\*\*\*“Well, or most of the Presidents of the 18th and 19th centuries. None of them have particularly admirable records when it comes to dealing with the Indians. There’s a reason Helen Hunt Jackson called her look at US-Indian relations “A Century of Dishonor”\*” \*\*spoke- \*\*"_Ulysses S. Grant’s Indian policies were responsible for as many or more Indian deaths than Andrew Jackson, yet I don’t hear anybody griping about Grant on the $50 bill."_ The Trail of Tears actually went down during President Van Buren’s watch, not Jackson’s. General Winfield Scott is usually blamed for the horrors commited during the forced evacuation. I don’t see many rants about _them._ In fact, if any one President should be blamed, it’s Van Buren, not Jackson. Thus, Jackson’s views on “the Indian Problem” were, like it or not, not too far off from the norm for his day. Sadly. ☹ Lastly I refer you to: > **[Godwin's law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)** > > Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule), short for Godwin's law of Nazi analogies, is an Internet proverb asserting: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." The law's creator, Mike Godwin, maintains these comparisons often trivialize the Holocaust. It is an example of the reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy. > In 2021, Harvard researchers published an article showing that the Nazi-comparison phenomenon does not occur with statistically ... And, I hope you have forgiven the Nazis for bombing Pearl Harbor. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/64 "2008-01-05T21:27:13Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Perhaps that’s because so many of us seldom see one? [/QUOTE] They’re usually _under_ the cash drawer, look there. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/65 "2008-01-06T00:06:58Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] The Trail of Tears actually went down during President Van Buren’s watch, not Jackson’s. [/QUOTE] Van Buren was the Indian Hater’s handpicked successor precisely because he was a reliable lapdog. The Indian Removal Act had already been enacted before he took office. Blaming him for the Trail of Tears would be like blaming Obama for enforcing the Patriot [sic] Act when he takes office. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/66 "2008-01-06T00:25:38Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Van Buren was the Indian Hater’s handpicked successor precisely because he was a reliable lapdog. The Indian Removal Act had already been enacted before he took office. Blaming him for the Trail of Tears would be like blaming Obama for enforcing the Patriot [sic] Act when he takes office. I dunno, if Obama enforces the PATRIOT Act when he takes office, damn right I’d blame him. Why must we have only one locus for our anger? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > What is goodwins law? “Keep your mitts off the orchids”? Okay, when **AdmiralCrunch** and **Kneepants Erasmus, the Humanist** are done with the wedding chapel, we’re next. You’re awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/67 "2008-01-06T00:40:16Z")
[QUOTE=choie] I dunno, if Obama enforces the PATRIOT Act when he takes office, damn right I’d blame him. Why must we have only one locus for our anger? [/QUOTE] A legitimate question, and one I can understand your asking it. But as we have long known from our own historians, the specifics are much more complex than that. We took the advice of Thomas Jefferson and educated ourselves. We invented an alphabet and taught ourselves to read and write. We built homes in the style of whites, dressed in the style of whites, and made laws — even writing a Constitution — in the style of whites. We made every attempt to live honorably and peacefully among our white neighbors. When _General_ Jackson needed warriors for his fights against our mutual enemies, we provided them. We fought by The Devil’s side, risking our own lives to make possible his lopsided victory against the Creek. But in the end, he was the man who crafted our removal and caused the extermination of thousands of our people, just as he was the man who turned a blind eye when the Postmaster General in South Carolina was burning pamphlets mailed to churches by Northern abolitionists. Van Buren was no more saintly than the Indian Hater himself, but Van Buren got his payback with an economic depression and a presidency that is universally ridiculed. Jackson, meanwhile, continues to be honored by those who believe that just because he was nice to puppies, he was overall a good man. (To use a metaphor.) ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/68 "2008-01-06T00:45:24Z")
How about that Kaiser Wilhelm then? What a complete,utter bastard. Good job he’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/69 "2008-01-06T00:45:50Z")
So there’s never been a single Cherokee chief who wasn’t a benevolent humanitarian? Jesus Christ, you’re a shitty historian, **Lib**. Oh, and which Kaiser Wilhelm? Because Wilhelm I was the one who drove my family out of Germany, the fucking Alsace-Lorrainian Hater. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/70 "2008-01-06T00:47:19Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] How about that Kaiser Wilhelm then? What a complete,utter bastard. Good job he’s dead. [/QUOTE] [Stupid hat motherfucker](http://portrait.kaar.at/Erster%20Weltkrieg/images/kaiser_wilhelm.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/71 "2008-01-06T00:57:52Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] [Stupid hat motherfucker](http://portrait.kaar.at/Erster%20Weltkrieg/images/kaiser_wilhelm.jpg). [/QUOTE] Are you kidding? I wish I had had that hat back in grade school-that would have been handy dealing with bullies. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/72 "2008-01-06T03:37:36Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] That was Mussolini. (By the way, when you find where I defended Hitler, or even Jackson, please let me know.) [/QUOTE] When you find where I said you did, let me know…deal? ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/73 "2008-01-06T03:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Ulysses S. Grant’s Indian policies were responsible for as many or more Indian deaths than Andrew Jackson, yet I don’t hear anybody griping about Grant on the $50 bill. [/QUOTE] Sure…Get that bastard off the fifty as well. But Jackson was a different kind of evil. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/74 "2008-01-06T03:43:06Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] A legitimate question, and one I can understand your asking it. But as we have long known from our own historians, the specifics are much more complex than that. We took the advice of Thomas Jefferson and educated ourselves. We invented an alphabet and taught ourselves to read and write. We built homes in the style of whites, dressed in the style of whites, and made laws — even writing a Constitution — in the style of whites. We made every attempt to live honorably and peacefully among our white neighbors. When _General_ Jackson needed warriors for his fights against our mutual enemies, we provided them. We fought by The Devil’s side, risking our own lives to make possible his lopsided victory against the Creek. But in the end, he was the man who crafted our removal and caused the extermination of thousands of our people, just as he was the man who turned a blind eye when the Postmaster General in South Carolina was burning pamphlets mailed to churches by Northern abolitionists. Van Buren was no more saintly than the Indian Hater himself, but Van Buren got his payback with an economic depression and a presidency that is universally ridiculed. Jackson, meanwhile, continues to be honored by those who believe that just because he was nice to puppies, he was overall a good man. (To use a metaphor.) [/QUOTE] well said. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/75 "2008-01-06T03:44:36Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] So there’s never been a single Cherokee chief who wasn’t a benevolent humanitarian? Jesus Christ, you’re a shitty historian, **Lib**. Oh, and which Kaiser Wilhelm? Because Wilhelm I was the one who drove my family out of Germany, the fucking Alsace-Lorrainian Hater. [/QUOTE] I dont see where lib said any such thing. Lot of bad people in the world. We just need to honor them and pretend they were great men. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/76 "2008-01-06T03:47:31Z")
[QUOTE=bdgr] Sure…Get that bastard off the fifty as well. But Jackson was a different kind of evil. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure Grant’s was quite on the same level of treachery and deceit however. His were more of a series of pure military campaigns, weren’t they? Jackson’s were a more personal betrayal and more evil to me, but then I might be ignorant on what Grant did. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/77 "2008-01-06T04:24:13Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > Andrew Jackson was a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch. And while Liberal may be getting repetitive on the subject, he’s not wrong. It may be becoming almost a schtick for Liberal, but he has every right and better reason than most to keep repeating it as often as he likes. I may think he’s incomplete, in his condemnation of the man, but that’s very far from saying he’s wrong. This and other arguments, BTW, are starting to win me over to **Liberal** ’s side here. President Jackson’s was certainly not a bright time in the history of America as a land of the free, and a man of as much importance as he had in those days ought not escape modern criticism, it seems. I don’t know enough about that time period to say conclusively where I stand on this, though. However, **Liberal** , I do apologize for implying that you fabricated your Cherokee heritage, here and elsewhere. That was a little…err…hostile of me. > [@choie](#): > > I dunno, if Obama enforces the PATRIOT Act when he takes office, damn right I’d blame him. Why must we have only one locus for our anger? Very true. The USA PATRIOT Act is not a declaration of newly illegal things, but an expansion of the executive branch’s influence on the lifes of innocent Americans. Anyone who participates in using the “tools” provided by the Act is as guilty as the White House and Senate of the time were for giving us the thing in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/78 "2008-01-06T04:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Jesus Christ, you’re a shitty historian, **Lib**. [/QUOTE] **Guin** , I haven’t addressed you yet because it is almost always a waste of time. You seldom give any respect to what I say. But with that comment to me, I challenge you to show where in this thread I’ve demonstrated being a “shitty historian”. Are you just being pissy and mean because you didn’t get the pile-on you’d hoped for? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/79 "2008-01-06T04:32:01Z")
[QUOTE=Hostile Dialect] I don’t know enough about that time period to say conclusively where I stand on this, though. However, **Liberal** , I do apologize for implying that you fabricated your Cherokee heritage, here and elsewhere. That was a little…err…hostile of me. [/QUOTE] Your apology is accepted. And appreciated. Wado. (Thank you.) ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347/80 "2008-01-06T05:28:13Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] [Stupid hat motherfucker](http://portrait.kaar.at/Erster%20Weltkrieg/images/kaiser_wilhelm.jpg). [/QUOTE] Boy that Captain Kangaroo was a vicious dude back in his day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberal-would-you-kindly-give-it-a-rest-about-andrew-jackson-mild/432347.md?page=5)