# Liberals, are you ready to abandon the public option? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938 "2009-09-05T03:21:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/61 "2009-09-07T03:26:38Z")
From Wiki: > **[Health care system in Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan)** > > The health care system in Japan provides different types of services, including screening examinations, prenatal care and infectious disease control, with the patient accepting responsibility for 30% of these costs while the government pays the remaining 70%. Payment for personal medical services is offered by a universal health care insurance system that provides relative equality of access, with fees set by a government committee. All residents of Japan are required by the law to have health... > [@](#): > > In the Japanese health care system, healthcare services, including screening examinations for particular diseases at no direct cost to the patient, prenatal care, and infectious disease control, are provided by national and local governments. Payment for personal medical services is offered through a universal health care insurance system that provides relative equality of access, with fees set by a government committee. People without insurance through employers can participate in a national health insurance program administered by local governments. Since 1983[1], all elderly persons have been covered by government-sponsored insurance. Patients are free to select physicians or facilities of their choice. Mad intertube skills, me. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/62 "2009-09-07T03:55:32Z")
These are times when I wish we had the services of a Marxist MBA, the only business \*mavens \*we’ve got are aligned with the Forces of Darkness. Did the big insurance companies lose money in the recent unpleasantness? Everybody else did, seems likely they did as well. And people who sell insurance, as compared with exotic credit swaps, have to maintain reserves. How are those reserves looking, right about now? I would not be surprised to hear that their plan for a return to robust fiscal health would be seriously hindered by any of the plans under consideration. Even the most minimal regulation on their nasty habit of rescinding unprofitable plans would cost them money. And seems to me I was hearing something about a lot of rate hikes? Lately? Perhaps they recognize the inevitability of some public health plan, but are hoping to recover before the cheese gets too binding. So they instruct their congress minions to obstruct, delay, stall. The goal is not any compromise, not even a favorable compromise, because there is no such. The plan is to so thoroughly fuck things up so that the whole process gets postponed. That is why Obama cannot find any common ground, they cannot \*admit \*common ground. Now, assuming Obama is at least as smart as I am (and I’m sure he’s smarter, but I’ve managed to forgive him for that…), he might see a “rope a dope” strategy here: all along, he’s the reasonable, responsible one. Always ready to talk, always ready to negotiate, always the adult while the other guy sets the furniture on fire. Hey, Barry! Get your staff out there to find some choice victims of the evil insurance companies, there’s a shitload, you won’t have any trouble. Just be sure they’re squeeky clean, all American goody-two shoes. Mid-American, hard-working, law-abiding, boned up the ass by their insurer. Let them do the talking, just stand there and listen sombrely. Promise them that their fellow Americans…not the government!, their fellow Americans!..will come to their aid. And watch the bad guys bleed. Its kinda dirty, not real proud of it. Do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/63 "2009-09-07T04:17:50Z")
The single payer option is not dead. If Obama pushes it Wednesday ,then we will have big fun. The repubs and people who think they have some assurance that their present health care will be there ,just the way they like it, for as long as they want it. So he will be in political war with the people who make money off the present system and the delusional. This will be interesting. If Obama stands his ground , the Dems could prosper, but if they cave they could do real damage to the party. We do not need the party of money against the party of money-Lite. Someone has to fight for the people sometime. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/64 "2009-09-07T04:47:42Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > This will be interesting. If Obama stands his ground , the Dems could prosper, but if they cave they could do real damage to the party. We do not need the party of money against the party of money-Lite. Someone has to fight for the people sometime. Optimist. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/65 "2009-09-07T04:50:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Optimist. Well, somebody’s got to! ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/66 "2009-09-07T07:10:03Z")
How can he not stand his ground, he got elected on change and everyone knows this is what he meant - he has a democratic mandate from the people. This is what he got elected to do, if he doesn’t do it what the hell is the point of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/67 "2009-09-07T08:29:27Z")
Adding my two cents. The public option is non-negotiable, and I will consider health care reform a complete failure (and reconsider my admiration for Obama) without it. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/68 "2009-09-07T11:33:18Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > This will be interesting. If Obama stands his ground , the Dems could prosper, but if they cave they could do real damage to the party. We do not need the party of money against the party of money-Lite. Someone has to fight for the people sometime. If you truly believe either of these parties are fighting for anything other than the politician’s benefit, I have a nice deal on a bridge for you. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/69 "2009-09-07T12:28:49Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > If you truly believe either of these parties are fighting for anything other than the politician’s benefit, I have a nice deal on a bridge for you. Then there’s no point, and we might as well skip all political threads in the future. Will you be skipping them? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/70 "2009-09-07T13:37:05Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > The most important thing for me is that everybody is covered, no “pre-existing condition” exclusions, and co-pays are capped so that nobody will have to go bankrupt over healthcare. We could do that without a public option. Switzerland requires everyone to buy health insurance, with subsidies to those who can’t afford it. That would be vastly preferable to the status quo (46 million uninsured). > > I respect what the House Progressive Caucus is doing, and I hope they win the game of chicken they are playing with the Senate. But if they can’t win the fight for the public option, they shouldn’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Agreed. My company is willing to pay for insurance, but because I am the only US employee, I cannot get coverage due to existing conditions. (I am covered by individual insurance, not group coverage. If we added an employee, we could then get group.) We aren’t asking for social medicine, we are asking that we be \*able \*to cover me. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/71 "2009-09-07T13:48:18Z")
I must say that I’m confused. I thought that the public option was the central, key point of Obama’s plan. If you abandon that, then what is left? Just mandating coverage under the current system? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/72 "2009-09-07T14:09:20Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I must say that I’m confused. I thought that the public option was the central, key point of Obama’s plan. If you abandon that, then what is left? Just mandating coverage under the current system? This is similar to my question above. I think that what is left is new regulations and mandated coverage. People are also talking about “co-ops” as an alternative to a public option, but it’s not clear to me what calling this an “alternative to a public option” is supposed to amount to. We already have co-ops, don’t we? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/73 "2009-09-07T14:28:49Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I must say that I’m confused. I thought that the public option was the central, key point of Obama’s plan. If you abandon that, then what is left? Just mandating coverage under the current system? I have some sympathy for people like you who don’t really know what’s going on with health reform, because the public education campaign has not been well done. But then if you don’t know what it does, it seems the rational thing is to hold your tongue until you become better informed. Isn’t it? [This](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR03200:@@@D&summ2=m&) is a very short summary - only a page or two - of one of the main bills. It is almost so condensed as to be worthless, but if you’re still at “what does this bill do other than make a public option?” then it should be of some value to you. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/74 "2009-09-07T14:45:36Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I have some sympathy for people like you who don’t really know what’s going on with health reform, because the public education campaign has not been well done. But then if you don’t know what it does, it seems the rational thing is to hold your tongue until you become better informed. Isn’t it? “Hold your tongue”?? :mad:😕 What the fuck? **JTGain** asks a question in order to become better informed, and you snidely explain to him he should “hold his tongue” until he becomes better informed? Ridiculously poor form, **Richard**. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/75 "2009-09-07T14:47:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Ridiculously poor form, **Richard**. I believe he has made many posts denigrating health care reform. If I’ve confused his moniker with that of another, then I apologize for the mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/76 "2009-09-07T14:52:02Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I believe he has made many posts denigrating health care reform. If I’ve confused his moniker with that of another, then I apologize for the mistake. Doesn’t really seem relevant. You only harm yourself and others’ image of you when you jump the gun like this. Just provide the info, and if your interlocutor is indeed an opponent, then wait for him to make the first slip. Let him look foolish, so you don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/77 "2009-09-07T14:59:16Z")
It is my opinion that if you don’t know that much about health care reform, you ought not post in the manner jtgain has [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11520294#post11520294), [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11526808#post11526808), [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11445696&postcount=3) and in other threads. You don’t get to refer to Obama death panels and then later confess you actually have no idea what’s going on with health reform without receiving a mild rebuke. That’s all. I didn’t intend the hijack the thread over it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/78 "2009-09-07T15:21:10Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It is my opinion that if you don’t know that much about health care reform, you ought not post in the manner jtgain has [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11520294#post11520294), [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11526808#post11526808), [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11445696&postcount=3) and in other threads. You don’t get to refer to Obama death panels and then later confess you actually have no idea what’s going on with health reform without receiving a mild rebuke. That’s all. I didn’t intend the hijack the thread over it. The background info brings it all together. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/79 "2009-09-07T16:22:26Z")
Talking (again) of “death panels”, Reuters takes another view: **California’s Real Death Panels: Insurers Deny 21% of Claims** > [@](#): > > OAKLAND, Calif., Sept. 2 /PRNewswire/ – More than one of every five requests > for medical claims for insured patients, even when recommended by a patient’s > physician, are rejected by California’s largest private insurers, amounting to > very real death panels in practice daily in the nation’s biggest state, > according to data released today by the California Nurses Association/National > Nurses Organizing Committee. > > CNA/NNOC researchers analyzed data reported by the insurers to the California > Department of Managed Care. From 2002 through June 30, 2009, the six largest > insurers operating in California rejected 31.2 million claims for care - 21 > percent of all claims. [etc.](http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS202570+02-Sep-2009+PRN20090902) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938/80 "2009-09-07T17:18:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It is my opinion that if you don’t know that much about health care reform, you ought not post in the manner jtgain has . . . On the other hand, you appear to be taking a rhetorical device in a ridiculously literal manner in order to shut down discussion. **jtgain** has, indeed, made a number of objections to his perception of the various health care reform proposals, often, though not always, in a snide manner. His post that started your current exchange was pretty clearly a facetious effort to claim that some of the proposals are in conflict with each other or contradict themselves. Stick to addressing his questions and leave out your opinion of what you think he ought to post. **Frylock** , you might consider that your effort at intervention, however, well-intentioned, (or not), was rather more likely to bring on an off-topic feud than actually resolving the issue. Everyone stick to the discussion without the personal remarks. [/Moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-are-you-ready-to-abandon-the-public-option/508938.md?page=5)