# Liberals hanging with Conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 18, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815 "2017-12-18T22:53:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/41 "2017-12-19T20:39:26Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > … Am I incorrect in my assumption that Blue Staters will often try to understand and initiate a dialog with the other side while Red Staters could care less? I really hope I my assumption is proven wrong. I’m a Red Stater. Part of my participation here is to understand and initiate a dialog with the other side. Is your assumption proven wrong now? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/42 "2017-12-19T20:41:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Ok, you brought up taxes. Let’s give that a shot. > > Conservatives believe that it’s a good thing when people can keep as much of the money that they earned as possible, and when as little as possible is taken from them by force. It sounds good. Can we get the tax cuts along with spending cuts too, though? Republicans want the tax cuts, without actually cutting anything really significant, which is why I think we’ve generally seen better fiscal responsibility with Democrats in office, if we have a choice between those two parties. John Stossel’s makes the same observation with a Democrat in the WH. I’m all for tax cuts, but barring a miracle, we will pay for this latest tax plan once again in the long run, if reports I’m seeing are credible and even coming from conservative sources show that this latest is going to add to the debt once again, and doesn’t even remotely cover the promised growth economists expect we’ll get from the tax cuts. Republicans tend to always want to spend more on the military as well; I think it would be a difficult road to the WH if they didn’t coddle and buy their votes with more money spent on them. The true cost of our defense is mind boggling; much more than the annual report that gets quoted. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/43 "2017-12-19T20:54:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m a Red Stater. Part of my participation here is to understand and initiate a dialog with the other side. Is your assumption proven wrong now? Not that I’ve followed all of your posts, but I can’t say that I have had the impression that you were really interested in understanding the perspectives of those whose political ideologies do not line up with your own, but rather to advance your own. Not that liberal ideology is that hard to understand. The end goal really is to increase the quality of life for as many as possible. Ways of getting there get debated, and there are false starts and dead ends, to be sure, but the guiding philosophy of the liberal is “How can we ensure that everyone has a chance for a meaningful and productive life?” My understanding of conservative ideology is “I got mine, how can we ensure that no one takes it?” ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/44 "2017-12-19T21:01:42Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Hanging out together is not a problem. I live in trump country. Most of my acquaintances are conservative. > > We just don’t about politics, as we know that there is no way to see eye to eye on such things, and we are getting together to enjoy ourselves, not to fight and argue. > > I am often tempted to break that rule, but I know how annoying it is when someone else does, so I resist that temptation. Yeah, pretty much this. My conservative friends and I talk about family, work, weather, training horses, trucks, hay, and food. And church. Which is mainly things like could that have been a more boring homily? Do we have enough candles? Who is on the list of shut-ins to be visited? Nothing like politics. I don’t like talking politics with anybody usually, not matter where they are on the political spectrum. It’s all about outrage, not analysis, and I can manufacture all the simplistic outrage I require all on my own. Exception is my dad, who was a newspaper publisher and hence, an astute observer of the political field. Unlike reporters and editors, publishers have to get along with business as well as cover the news. Otherwise they won’t have advertisers and they’ll go under. So they tend to have a nuanced and keen eye. He always has something interesting and not predictable to say. Don’t know many like him. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/45 "2017-12-19T22:30:41Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > Here is a hint: Assuming that Trump voters view him as a ‘seriously deranged, authoritarian con man who works for our enemies’ is a bad place to start if you are trying to understand why they voted for him. > > For a board that supposedly is interested in fighting ignorance, it is rather surprising that no one has actually bothered to look at any research in this area. > > Slee I"m well aware of Haidt’s writings on the subject. To me, Haidt along with reading up on authoritarianism, as well as reading up on tribalism in all its forms (nativism, white nationalism, christian dominionism, in groups/out groups etc) goes a long way to understanding the base of the GOP. I don’t think all republicans are authoritarian or tribalistic. But a significant percentage of them are (probably around 50% of the GOP). When I called Trump a ‘seriously deranged, authoritarian con man who works for our enemies’ my point is that is how he comes across to a lot of us on the left and there are valid reasons to call him all those things. I never called Mitt Romney, John McCain, George Bush, Bob Dole, etc. those things. Just like to the right I’m sure that Hillary Clinton is an unprincipled career criminal who always escapes justice and would start WW3. But on the left we don’t view her that way. I’m sure to lots of people on the right, they can’t figure out why anyone would support Hillary Clinton. At the end of the day, I think its easier for the right to understand the left than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/46 "2017-12-19T22:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **sleestak** : > The issue with conservative vs. liberals is that each group is working from a different set of moral foundations. Those foundations are care, fairness, loyalty, authority, liberty\* and sanctity. Liberals, as a group, score very high on fairness and caring. Conservatives on the other hand are concerned with all the foundations equally. So when a conservative has a belief that is based, or somewhat based, on sanctity, liberals really do not understand it. At the same time, conservatives understand a liberal belief based on fairness, but they don’t give fairness the same weight a liberal does. So, yes, conservatives (as a group) can understand liberals better than liberals understand conservatives. Which one of those virtues leads to voting for Trump? He has no care, no sense of fairness, no loyalty, no respect for authority, no valuation of liberty, and no sense of sanctity. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/47 "2017-12-19T23:20:42Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > So, let me play this back to you the way I heard it: It’s as though there’s been a civil war, and you lost. You’re living in the same place, but it feels as though you are an exile in your own country, because the dominant culture isn’t yours any more. You lost, and now you are a dwindling, misunderstood, despised minority culture. > > If that’s the way you feel, well no wonder you’re cranky. > > By the way, I think that’s exactly what is happening. It isn’t “coastal elites” though. That would be a very small group, by definition of “elite”. It’s a big group. It’s a huge group. It includes every city in the US and Europe. Millions upon millions of people, and against that there’s, you know, North Dakota. Rural white people, a dying breed. The dying breed that happens to be in control of most state governorships, the House, the Senate, the White House, and the Supreme Court? That dying breed? I’ll admit, you guys have had it your way for a long time. You’ve infiltrated and over time have come to inveigle yourselves into dominance in most of the ways people get their information - Hollywood, news, schools, etc. This has been going on a long time and as a result we now have an entire generation of people coming up who can’t speak, spell or write properly, can’t do math, and who can’t cope with adversity or otherwise hack it in life. But they damn sure know that conservatives are eevil. So I can see how you’ve come to feel that you’re the dominant culture. But all this has been allowed to happen because with liberals increasingly dominating the national dialog, conservatives had no way of fighting back. Fortunately electrons have come to the rescue. First with radio, ala right-wing talk shows. And then with television, with Fox providing an alternative to the liberal-biased mainstream media. And then most importantly, the internet and social media burst onto the scene and now those of us on the right have a way to congregate, organize, and fight back. You saw the result last November. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/48 "2017-12-19T23:26:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Which one of those virtues leads to voting for Trump? He has no care, no sense of fairness, no loyalty, no respect for authority, no valuation of liberty, and no sense of sanctity. From the perspective of many Trump voters, from what I can tell: 1. A man doesn’t have to be moral himself, if his agenda and policies are more likely to have the desirable moral effect on the country (i.e., an immoral man who will appoint pro-life justices to SCOTUS would have a more moral impact on the nation, from a pro-life perspective, than a moral man/woman who would appoint pro-abortion justices to SCOTUS.) Indeed, many Trump voters would see the focus on Trump’s own personal issues as an ad hominem. 2. Trump is perceived in many ways as being \*more \*respecting of authority and law than the Democrats. For instance, Trump voters consider enforcing tough measures against illegal immigrants _to be_ respect for the laws of the land, while they see sanctuary cities, support for amnesty, and those who would fight to prevent deportations, as \*flouting \*the law of the land. 3. Trump voters see Trump as being more fair than Hillary or the Dems; they see Trump’s talk of reviving the heartland and Rust Belt, the “forgotten men and women of America,” and talk of opposing job outsourcing, to be speaking up for the American worker and \*for \*fairness. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/49 "2017-12-19T23:29:57Z")
Almost everyone in the world - be they Communists, Republicans, Islamic terrorists, Democrats, Black Panthers, etc. - fights for what they perceive as being fair and right. Their assumptions may be wrong, or their viewpoint may be different, but they almost all have that same moral energy that propels them in the direction that their moral compass directs them. The underlying assumption that \*“If my opponents cared about truth, fairness, well-being and goodness, they’d come over to my side and become (republicans, democrats, liberals, conservatives, etc.)” \*is fundamentally flawed. One’s opponents usually do care about truth, fairness, and goodness - _that’s why they support whatever it is that they support._ ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/50 "2017-12-19T23:50:19Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > So while you may not intend it that way, ‘as long as they don’t bring up politics’ really excludes a lot of minorities. Well, considering how I view life, there are no issues with people being who they are. The only problems are with what they insist on talking about. I tell people “I’m not the right audience for that” if I disagree with their political rants. If they take the clue and don’t keep trying to engage me, there’s no problems. But yes, I would have as much issue with a trans person insisting that I engage in a discussion of gender normatives and societal oppression as I would talking about Christians being oppressed in this country, hating on poor people (usually while being one) or even going full Hotep. Those are conversations I choose not to participate in, so it comes down to whether or not you’re willing to respect me for being who I am (a liberal) and not try to engage me with stuff you know I don’t want to discuss or that I disagree with. Oh, I’m perfectly willing to discuss those things with you, just on neutral ground and at the right time. I don’t want to insult you in your own house and won’t take being insulted as a guest, nor would I like either in my house. And if you’re trying to engage me at a gaming session, just stop. I’m there to game. The joy and excitement of the game is the only thing I want to raise my heart rate. At lunch, “Hey Chimera, have you heard the good news of Jesus Christ”, or “What do you think of those fucking football protests?” and depending on how I feel, maybe. But when I say that I don’t believe in the religions of men and have no objections to the football player’s actions, I don’t want to hear anger or abuse. Because while I can justify and cite proof of my beliefs and my credo, there isn’t any point in time and space where I have to explain or justify it to you. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/51 "2017-12-20T00:02:27Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think one difference here is that conservatives have more stomach for “fair” suffering than liberals do. For instance, if Amy and Peter are both paid $50k a year, but Amy is frugal and saves a lot of money, while Peter is wasteful and maxes out his credit card and spends thousands of dollars on frivolous things, then when the time comes that Amy is well-off and secure, while Peter is homeless, broke, and sleeping in a cardboard box, most conservatives would see no problem with “Peter made his bed, now he can sleep in it; his suffering is deserved.” I beg to differ. Anyone who spends some time driving around the rural, town, and smaller cities in the central part of the country can find thousands of food banks, homeless shelters, soup kitchens, clinics, and other charities dedicated to helping the poor. There are frequently thrift stores and other businesses that exist to donate their profits to a charitable cause. In small towns, much of the social life is organized around fundraisers; typically if a family is in need, the community will put together a spaghetti dinner or something where voluntary donations are taken up for assistance. And much of the population, particularly older people, are active members of groups such as the Lions or Elks that work to provide for the poor. So these endless claims that conservatives take delight in the suffering of the poor contradict observable reality. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/52 "2017-12-20T00:22:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Not that I’ve followed all of your posts, but I can’t say that I have had the impression that you were really interested in understanding the perspectives of those whose political ideologies do not line up with your own, but rather to advance your own. I did say “part of”. You’ve highlighted another part (to expose liberals to a conservative perspective). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > … The end goal really is to increase the quality of life for as many as possible. Ways of getting there get debated, and there are false starts and dead ends, to be sure, but the guiding philosophy of the liberal is “How can we ensure that everyone has a chance for a meaningful and productive life?” > … I _really_ don’t want to derail the thread with an abortion debate, but I would like to note that there are some pro-life people who would probably lose their shit reading the definition of liberalism you proffer here. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/53 "2017-12-20T00:28:57Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The dying breed that happens to be in control of most state governorships, the House, the Senate, the White House, and the Supreme Court? > > That dying breed? > > I’ll admit, you guys have had it your way for a long time. You’ve infiltrated and over time have come to inveigle yourselves into dominance in most of the ways people get their information - Hollywood, news, schools, etc. This has been going on a long time and as a result we now have an entire generation of people coming up who can’t speak, spell or write properly, can’t do math, and who can’t cope with adversity or otherwise hack it in life. But they damn sure know that conservatives are eevil. > > So I can see how you’ve come to feel that you’re the dominant culture. But all this has been allowed to happen because with liberals increasingly dominating the national dialog, conservatives had no way of fighting back. > > Fortunately electrons have come to the rescue. First with radio, ala right-wing talk shows. And then with television, with Fox providing an alternative to the liberal-biased mainstream media. And then most importantly, the internet and social media burst onto the scene and now those of us on the right have a way to congregate, organize, and fight back. > > You saw the result last November. Yep. But I am guessing this coming November will be a somewhat different experience for us both. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/54 "2017-12-20T00:53:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Which one of those virtues leads to voting for Trump? He has no care, no sense of fairness, no loyalty, no respect for authority, no valuation of liberty, and no sense of sanctity. In Group and Purity were big among Trump supporters. The in group is white christian Americans with traditional patriarchal values. The out group is people who threaten this in group’s rule on power (non-whites, non-christians, immigrants, alternative lifestyles, social justice promoters all lining up to live here, vote and take positions of power and influence in the economy, political establishment and culture). Purity is keeping these impure forces at bay and under wraps (disgust by latino immigrants, blacks or gays would be examples of purity). Authority is about respect for the military and police which in general the GOP do more than democrats. Granted there are loopholes (Trump insulting troops many times) but in general its there. I don’t know about liberty. The right loves to talk about liberty, but generally they mean liberty to be free of government regulation, free of a social safety net, and freedom to mistreat minority groups without the government getting involved to stop them (states rights only became a right wing talking point when the federal government forced southern states to stop treating black people like garbage). I assume both groups care about liberty, they just define liberty differently. I don’t know much about the liberty matrix in Haidt’s theories, but it sounds like one of the values that both parties subscribe to. They just define it differently. For liberals liberty probably means freedom from social oppression, freedom from plutocracy, freedom from poverty, things like that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/55 "2017-12-20T01:03:53Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In Group and Purity were big among Trump supporters. The in group is white christian Americans with traditional patriarchal values. The out group is people who threaten this in group’s rule on power (non-whites, non-christians, immigrants, alternative lifestyles, social justice promoters all lining up to live here, vote and take positions of power and influence in the economy, political establishment and culture). Purity is keeping these impure forces at bay and under wraps (disgust by latino immigrants, blacks or gays would be examples of purity). … What about the 21% of non-white voters (according to CNN’s exit polls) that voted for President Trump? Do you believe these statements apply to them too? President Trump received: [ul] [li]8% of the black vote[/li][li]28% of the latino vote[/li][li]27% of the asian vote[/li][li]36% of the other races[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/56 "2017-12-20T01:10:22Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The dying breed that happens to be in control of most state governorships, the House, the Senate, the White House, and the Supreme Court? > > That dying breed? > > I’ll admit, you guys have had it your way for a long time. You’ve infiltrated and over time have come to inveigle yourselves into dominance in most of the ways people get their information - Hollywood, news, schools, etc. This has been going on a long time and as a result we now have an entire generation of people coming up who can’t speak, spell or write properly, can’t do math, and who can’t cope with adversity or otherwise hack it in life. But they damn sure know that conservatives are eevil. > > So I can see how you’ve come to feel that you’re the dominant culture. But all this has been allowed to happen because with liberals increasingly dominating the national dialog, conservatives had no way of fighting back. > > Fortunately electrons have come to the rescue. First with radio, ala right-wing talk shows. And then with television, with Fox providing an alternative to the liberal-biased mainstream media. And then most importantly, the internet and social media burst onto the scene and now those of us on the right have a way to congregate, organize, and fight back. > > You saw the result last November. As a liberal, I don’t feel we’ve had it our way. We’ve never had it our way in our lifetimes, and the last time we ‘had it our way’ as liberals was when FDR was in office. For a lot of us the choice has always been between a far right party (the GOP) and a center-right party (the democrats). Both parties are warlike, both parties are in the pockets of the plutocrats. We’ve never had a center-left party on the national scale (Sanders, Warren), let alone a far left party (socialists and communists, not that I’d support them). How do you feel we’ve had it our way? Liberals have won on many/most social issues in the last few decades, but not all of them (abortion, gun control). We have lost most of our economic battles in the last 40 years. I agree that the GOP is not a dying breed. High school educated whites keep moving further and further to the right, delaying whatever demographic trends make it easier for the democrats to win. Outside of the big cities, conservatives pretty much control everything. The reason many millennials think conservatives are evil is because of how conservatives act. The modern GOP is at root a party of bigotry and short sighted plutocracy. To a lot of people, those things are evil and bad. They don’t have a bad opinion of conservatives because the liberal media lied to them, it is because they’ve seen what conservatives stand for and push. Also I’ve never understood the mentality that the media is liberal. There are liberal media outlets (MSNBC, PBS, HuffPo) but most news outlets are fairly unbiased. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/57 "2017-12-20T01:13:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What about the 21% of non-white voters (according to CNN’s exit polls) that voted for President Trump? Do you believe these statements apply to them too? President Trump received: > [ul] > [li]8% of the black vote[/li][li]28% of the latino vote[/li][li]27% of the asian vote[/li][li]36% of the other races[/li][/ul] Yes, that supports my point. Trump won 57% of the white vote but a far lower share of the minority vote. The fact that barely 1 in 5 racial minorities voted for Trump is a good argument for how the GOP is the party of the in group, and whites are the in group. Also men are the in group, which is why women are more democratic than men (of all races and income levels. Black women are more democratic than black men, white women are more democratic than white men). The more you fall into the in group (white, male, christian) the more GOP you are. The less you fall into it, the less you identify with it (in general). The fact that only 8% of blacks feel comfortable in the GOP tells you how powerful the in group/out group dynamics are in American politics. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/58 "2017-12-20T01:15:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m a Red Stater. Part of my participation here is to understand and initiate a dialog with the other side. Is your assumption proven wrong now? I don’t know. How many others like you do this? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/59 "2017-12-20T01:51:01Z")
You know, the phrase “Liberal Elites” always used to drive me crazy. Because, as **Starving Artist** just pointed out (though he may not have wanted to take this in quite the direction that I would…) there are conservatives in positions of actual economic and political power all over the place, so how is “Liberal” in any way a description of elites in general? It is undeniably true, though, that a lot of media and entertainment figures are politically liberal, and spend a bunch of time promoting liberal/left-wing values. It has just now occurred to me that I’ve been parsing “Liberal Elite” the wrong way. “Liberal Elites” are just “those members of the elite who happen to be Liberal”. “Conservative Elites” are also a thing, but they don’t work in the media and entertainment - they work in business and government and are usually called “the 1%” rather than “Conservative Elites”. The whole key to the OP then falls out rather naturally. Liberals go talk to the Conservative Hoi Polloi, because the Conservative Elites _aren’t talking at us all day long_. The Conservative Elites are busy making money or being in government (or, if you’re feeling really cynical, buying the government). Conservatives don’t come talk to the Liberal Hoi Polloi because the Liberal Elite are already doing plenty of communicating, and no extra is needed. The thing to watch out for is when people start dropping the “Liberal” out of “Liberal Elites” and start talking as if there are “Elites” (Liberal) and “Regular People” (Conservative) with which the Elites (Liberal) are Out of Touch. Nope. The Liberal Hoi Polloi and the Conservative Elite are also totally things. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815/60 "2017-12-20T02:45:36Z")
Wow. Posts by conservatives, such as the two I quote below, demonstrate how conservatives refuse to dialog even when liberals make an effort. I ask conservatives in the thread to start by rereading my brief post, paying particular attention to the portions I’ve highlighted: > [@septimus](#): > > I would encourage liberals to watch the brief Jonathan Haidt talk on YouTube and gain appreciation that **social conservatives have their own moral viewpoint, and that liberals would do well to understand and accommodate social conservatives.** > > Unfortunately, on the national political stage the social conservatives have been co-opted by the kleptocrats, who could care less about any moral values, whether liberal’s’ care&fair or conservatives’ care&fair&loyal&holy. **The real political divide is between Truth and Fiction, with conservatives rejecting the truthful but liberal media, and listening to FakeNews which panders to their moral views.** > > As I’ve been saying at SDMB for quite a while, **liberals need to stifle their sanctimonious stances on social issues** — which turn off half the public — and start encouraging conservatives to vote in their own self-interest on the economic issues which are _far_ more important (than issues like gay wedding cakes) at the federal level. Mine was a sincere attempt to bridge the gap. The social conservatives and kleptocrats have formed an unholy alliance, as has happened in other countries which turned to fascism; only understanding and compromise on social issues will allow us to come together on important economic issues. > [@Chronos](#): > > Which one of those virtues leads to voting for Trump? He has no care, no sense of fairness, no loyalty, no respect for authority, no valuation of liberty, and no sense of sanctity. And **Chronos** summarizes the problem we’re up against very well. Ryanism has nothing to do with social conservatism, even when it assumes a more ideological form like Farnabyism. So let’s touch on economic issues briefly, and do a reality-check. I’ll ask conservatives the following questions. This may seem like a diversion if the topic under debate is the gap between liberal and conservative social values. Unfortunately, as I already implied in my previous post, another relevant gap is between Information and Ignorance. I can converse with social conservatives with different opinions than myself. It is frustrating to discuss with people who have swallowed lies and cannot cope with simple arithmetic facts. (1) Excepting the ever-escalating price of healthcare, which increases government spending due to programs like Medicare, how does present-day government spending compare with that of the late 20th century? SPOILER: It is less, relatively. (2) How do you propose to reduce federal spending? Is there a line item called ‘Waste’ that consumes trillions and that can be eliminated with the stroke of a pen? Do you agree with many conservatives that 20% of the federal budget is spent on foreign aid? SPOILER: There is no way to make a big cut in federal spending — which has already been stripped to the bone — without huge cuts to the military and/or huge cuts to safety-net programs like Social Security. (3) How do you think government should pay for its programs? Taxes or something else? In another thread, a conservative seems proud that the Ryan-Trump tax plan reduces tax on the lower class AND reduces tax on the middle class AND reduces tax on the upper class AND reduces tax on corporations. Let’s test our skill on simple math: If w,x,y, and z all decrease, will (w+x+y+z) also decrease? (4) If your answer to (3) is “something else”, is the intent to borrow more and more from countries like China? Will this work out fine, as Trump has promised, because he’s the master of bankruptcy, at negotiating debt defaults? Conservative **sleestak** makes a post which mostly agrees with points I made in the quoted post above. But he quotes part of my post and finds fault: > [@sleestak](#): > > Liberals tend to put forth views like \*\*septimus \*\* where ‘Truth and Justice!!!’ are on the liberal side _while the liberal side is incapable of understanding what the social conservatives care about_. How do you go from my conciliatory post to the claim that “\*\*septimus \*\* [thinks] ‘Truth and Justice!!!’ are on the liberal side”? We can debate Justice after we agree about simple arithmetic, after we find common ground that 2+2 is 4. @ **sleestak** — will you kindly answer questions (1)-(4) above? > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Ok, you brought up taxes. Let’s give that a shot. > > Conservatives believe that it’s a good thing when people can keep as much of the money that they earned as possible, and when as little as possible is taken from them by force. For example, if Joe is walking down the street and a mugger pulls him into an alley and steals his wallet, that’s bad, because Joe loses the money that belongs to him, and the mugger gets money that he didn’t work for. > > As far as taxes are concerned, the government is a mugger on a much bigger scale. I have to hand over a large portion of all the money that I earn in my lifetime. If I don’t, the government will send some heavily armed men to take the money by force. If I resist, they may kill me. That’s what it means to collect taxes, though most people try not to think about it much. I’ve quoted a large portion of this peculiar Farnabyist screed, because it emphasizes the difference between conservative values (loyalty, authority, sanctity) and Ryan-Farnabyism. _ **In fact, loyalty, authority and sanctity all point to the acceptance of just taxation.** _ @ **ITR champion** — will you kindly answer questions (1)-(4) above? I’m not interested in whether you can make diction like “government is a mugger … they may kill me” even more ridiculously Farnabyist. I’m interested in your willingness to practice simple arithmetic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-hanging-with-conservatives/804815.md?page=4)