Well, it’s typical Republican, though. Five hundred people carry cement blocks to the worksite and build a set of steps to reach the top of a wall, and the 501st person wanders in, climbs up those steps, and declares that HE made it to the top.
Great point. To extend that a little bit, it’s kind of like American conservatives declaring that you should keep your damn greedy liberal hands off my money that I made all by myself by using the educational system, roads and public transit, police and national defense, fire protection, health system, public sanitation, technology infrastructure, [and so on and so forth] that was provided to me by America. It’s mine! I made it all on my own!
I know, that’s so funny. It’s like when gay people are always complaining the government won’t let them have sex with children, or black people just want to eat fried chicken, or those liberals who are trying to turn us all into commies.
What a great and original and accurate characterization you’ve provided Hentor.
Good job, dude.
Typical Rebublican where do you get that from? I honestly don’t expect a comment like that from you.
Of course. But at the same time, “finding out where the mess hall is,” is a pretty basic function, and “defending a provision of the UCMJ,” a more complicated one. So it’s not as much of a stretch as you might think: the Marine gets to eat at the mess hall; the President gets to defend the laws of the country.
It’s true that the President has the power to do this – refuse to defend a law. But when he uses his power this way, he undercuts the role that the executive branch is supposed to play in our system.
You’ve asked for a cite on that, but since there is not, and could not, be a law law compelling him to act, the proposition is not citable in that way. The citation is, instead, the point that both Richard Parker and I have made: it breaks the system.
And a moment’s thought should make that clear: it takes 50%+1 member of each house of Congress, plus the President’s assent, to create (or repeal) a law. That’s the system. Laws thus made may be overturn by judicial review, but the full due process of that review is an initial finding at the trial court level and a review of that finding by an appellate group of judges. When the executive branch refuses to defend a law, the result is that a law made by majorities of the House and Senate is repealed by action of one judge and one President. Indeed, the matter is put into even starker contrast if we imagine a President vetoing a law, and Congress passing it over his veto. The President that then refused to defend that law in court is, with the connivance of one judge, exercising a super-veto which Congress cannot touch, even though Congress is supposed to be able to pass laws over his veto with their 2/3rds majority.
That should not be the system.
Scylla, I HATE the modern Republican Party, for very good reason. That doesn’t mean I hate individual Republicans, en masse, but it does mean that I would cry no tears at all if the Republican Party as it currently exists were to wither away. I recognize the need for a counterweight to progressivism. But it’s not as if the Democrats are pure progressive. I’d welcome a sane conservative party. I really would. But the Republicans, as a party, have leapt off the cliff.
The Tea Partiers are Republicans, regardless of how they claim they’re registered. I don’t see large numbers of them supporting Democrats, do you? And the Tea Partiers appear to be convinced that whatever success they achieved, they achieved alone, with no government help or support, even as they sit in their Medicare-purchased scooters and ride the government-purchased Metro to get to the government-permit-holding government-maintained national historic site for their anti-government rally. The Wall Street whiz kids who whine loudly in newspaper editorial pages about how hard they have it trying to get by on $500,000 a year are convinced that they received no benefits from the government, despite living in a society that, largely through the efforts of the government, has provided them with the means to acquire and maintain that kind of lifestyle, through government-provided and -subsidized education, government oversight of food safety, workplace safety, disease prevention and containment, the monetary system, and general law and order.
And that’s not even getting in to the reason that I HATE Republicans in general…that’s just the reason I hold the party in contempt. The reason I HATE Republicans in general (with exceptions for individuals who’ve proven themselves) is that they hate me. I’m a gay atheist liberal. The only way I could make myself more hated is if I weren’t white.
I’m certainly not the first person to point out your hypocrisy, but all I have to say to this point of yours is “Liberals hate gays.”
Oh, and also, dumbass.
How was I being a hypocrite? I was congratulating you. If you think that behavior is bad why would you think my hypocrisy would absolve your behavior?
Key difference: to address the problem in my post, I need only add the word “many”, whereas we are now on what page of you having your ass handed to you as you try to defend yours?
Why would that be a key difference? All I have to do is add “many” to my title as well.
Are you pre-rational, or something?
I understand your feelings. I would not expect you to feel warm and fuzzy to a party who’s platform includes repressing you civil rights.
I do disagree with the conceptual impossibility you’ve proposed, which is that the government gives people things. The government doesn’t give anybody anything. It can’t give the people anything. It can just take.
I don’t begrudge fair taxes or paying my share for the overall good of society. I think should as I enjoy it’s benefits. I even think I should pay more than average since I have been fortunate to do better than average.
I do however resent the idea that Obama or others will look down on me as the enemy , or act as if I’ve done something wrong because I’ve been more successful than average.
I also really resent the concept that my success or anyone’s for that matter is a product of the government, and therefore somebody else has a right to it.
It’s not a product of the government, it’s a product of my upbringing, discipline, hard work and the sacrifices I’ve made to become successful. And, it is product of the society that has created an environment where it is possible for me to be successful. However, it is not a product of he government. The government does nothing for me. It is a necessary evil of a benevolent society, by an evil that should be checked and minimized.
I resent the government’s waste and corruption, and it’s unnecessary intrusion into my life. I also resent it’s unnecessary intrusion into your life. The government is involved in slot of things that it has no business being involved in. Your sexuality is high on that list. It has nothing to do with the proper functioning of government.
So, I’m surprised you think the government is this benevolent giver of things. From where I sit it looks to me like the government is taking away from you your right to participate as a full member of society.
The government is afull partner in my life in terms of what it takes. It doesn’t give back much, and it never has to me. What it does give back I have paid dearly for and most often could have gotten elsewhere cheaper. A lot of what it tries to give me, I don’t want, and a lot of the rest is of so poor quality I end buying my own elsewhere.
So, while you other argumens have merits, your concept of the right suck g off the tit of government doesn’t ring especially true.
Pure, unadulterated, steaming, stinky, us-versus-them bullshit.
Did you attend a public school? Did you attend a private school that gets educational grants? Do you drive on public highways? Do you have to set up a watch rotation so you can climb up on your roof to guard your house against roving bands of criminals, or do you have police protection? Are you choking on smog thick enough to cut, or are your local factories and power plants regulated as to what they can emit? Do you work for a business that benefits from the government’s prevention of fraud and encouragement of aboveboard business practices? Does your employer require you (and your daughter) to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, in hazardous and health-endangering conditions? Do you use relatively stable and guaranteed US dollars to buy things, or are you reduced to bartering?
Every. Single. Thing. That makes your life not a living hell of brutality, poverty and constant vigilance is something that the government carves out for you. Unless you live in a rough-hewn shack off the grid, out of any police/sheriff’s department’s jurisdiction, and don’t use money at all, you’ve been given something by the government. Because I know that I, and most likely you as well, can’t afford to provide all those things myself. Nobody can. Even Bill Gates can’t liquidate enough money per annum to actually run his own military.
And it’s not government-as-concept that’s depriving me of my rights…six states and multiple foreign nations currently offer me marriage. It’s the Right electing neanderthals and politicians who are more interested in being re-elected than in doing the right thing that are depriving me of my rights. And that includes Democrats when they side with Republicans on gay issues.
Well, it must be true. You look at just about any top of the line CEO, they’ll tell you it was hard work, pluck, intelligence, and virtue that put them in that place. Back-stabbing office politics, greed, pride…none of those had anything to do with it. Clearly, God rewards the virtuous with money and power, because virtue is the clear path to money and power.
Why, look at J.P. Morgan, who made his first big money selling defective rifles to the US Army! Think of all the Confederate soldiers who’s lives he saved when the gun blew up! And Henry Ford, all the money he spent educating America about the vast Jewish conspiracy! Why, the list goes on and on!
Wait, how does saying, “I don’t think that analogy works. Here’s a different analogy that I think better reflects reality,” count as twisting the point around? For that matter, how is quoting my post, cutting out the bit where I specifically said the original analogy didn’t work, and then responding to me as if I were talking about the original analogy not twisting my words?
No, we’re not the only ones being treated unfairly in society. But I haven’t been talking about how we’re treated in society at large, I’m talking about how reliable the Democratic party has been on following up on its promises to us.
Have the Democrats ever tried to present themselves as the group that really cares about Muslim rights? I mean, it would be nice if they did, but my issue isn’t really, “Democrats don’t help groups that need help,” so much as “Democrats don’t help groups that they’ve promised to help in exchange for money and votes.”
I honestly don’t know how reliable Democrats have been in helping other groups. My perception is that gays get shorted more often than other groups, but one is naturally more aware of slights to oneself than to others. Remember that this entire line of conversation that led to the horse analogy started from elucidator’s assertion that the Democrats helping gays would necessarily have to come at the cost of helping other groups. In hindsight, I should never have entertained that premise to begin with, because the whole thing turned out to be a set-up for a lame-ass gotcha where Karl Rove uses me personally to destroy liberalism in America. Lesson learned on that score, but just to be clear, let me restate: I neither request nor require that the Democrats give more aid to gays than to any other disadvantaged group.
So, to sum up, Democrats are bastards because they lie to gays about supporting us. If they lie only to gays about supporting us, their bastardy runs especially deep. If they lie to everyone about supporting them, their bastardy runs especially broad. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. Either way, the whole lot of them deserve to be staked out over anthills.
Tell you what, leave me out and I’ll stay out, because I am really tired of talking to you.
But, OK, is political power, political capital as they call it, is it infinite? If the Dems double the effort they make on behalf of latinos, does it limit the effort they can make on behalf of Elbonians? Or do they just reach into the Magic Goody Bag and pull out some more? Sadly, no.
OK, do you want them to make decisions based entirely on demographics, decide to support those groups with the most voters, and let the rest go? You wouldn’t much like that, I’m guessing.
Do the Dems have enough power to sweep aside the back-assward attitudes of millions of Americans, so they will turn on a dime and rush out to buy rice for gay weddings? Obviously not.
What if they’re telling you the truth? What if they are, in fact, doing all that can be practicably achieved under the present circumstances? Is that their fault, that they can’t walk on water and change minds by fiat?
And its not simply that the resources are finite, that resources spent here cannot be spent there. it is also the inherent jealousy and mutual suspicion of us monkeys. To keep the coalition together and to keep them committed, not only must you not do that, you must not even appear to do that!
Because in each of your stakeholder groups, you have people eager to start in ragging on them for their failure. You don’t think there are voices like yours amongst the latinos and the blacks? Hell, the Republicans were even trying to capitalize on that, urging latinos to punish Dems for their lack of commitment to their cause! (Talk about chutzpah!) Bet me. Bet me every dime you got, I can use it.
But I already said all this, and you didn’t listen, you just gave me some shit about kneepads and blowing Obama (which, I’m sure you will eventually realize, you really, really shouldn’t have…) So, OK, talking to the brick wall, I’ll quit. Just leave me out of it, OK?
Kumabya, and peace on you.
Well, then shut the hell up, already. It’s not like I’ve got a gun to your head, forcing you to keep coming back and misrepresenting my position.
Wait, sorry. Is “gun to your head” still to faggy for you?
Oh. Bad move.
Yes. I did for 7 years. In North Jersey, a suburb of NYC. My parents pulled me and put me in Catholic school because I was selected with a group of others to be bussed 45 minutes to Newark New Jersey to attend the 4th grade. It was one of the worst schools in the country in one of the most dangerous cities in the country. I was to be one of about 50 white kids from a nice public school in the suburb to be shipped down to a bad school in Newark. About 50 black kids would be shipped up from Newark to go to the nice suburban public school. This was thought that it would make things more fairer and equalize things because it was bad that black Newark had terrible schools and white Suburbia had nice public schools.
My parents didn’t think it was a great idea that my education and probably my wellbeing be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency and bureaucratic injustice and incompetence.
They lived in that suburb from 1969 until 2007. I do their taxes so I know they paid over $14,000 a year in school taxes. That was the ending value. But let’s say their average annual school tax was $7,000. That means they paid $266,000 worth of school taxes give or take over those 38 years. Or, $38,000 a year for my public school education.
My parents were doing well to live where they lived, and looking at it like that is a bit wrong. It is good for society for children to get educated, so those who can should pay more so that those can’t can get a good education. But, the education wasn’t good. And the education for other people that was being provided to justify the taking of those dollars (the schools in Newark,) was so abominably poor that anybody that went there was essentially doomed for life.
So, no I don’t think the government gave my parents anything there.
Here in Pa, I pay a little over $7,000 per year in combined property and school district income taxes. I send my children to private school, a Catholic school because the public schools or 4th quintile in the state. There averages 40 children per class.
I did some math. Our school district has a budget of $104,000,000. It comes out to $12,500 per student. I am on the finance committee at my children’s private school. The average class size is 12. They spend about $5,500 per student. They provide a vastly superior education as indicated by standardized test scores. They also provide a safe environment, access to teachers, a say in my child’s education, all those things that public school does not.
The public school system is a bureaucracy, and like all bureaucracies it defends and grows itself. It is rife with waste and corruption. There was a huge scandal because the district sold one school property to a relative of a board member because they said they didn’t need the space. Then, two years later they needed to buy property and build a new school. A lot of people tied into the school board enriched themselves on that deal. We pay our teachers with a better health plan than is available in the private sector, and they receive that great rarity (outside of government,) a defined benefit pension.
I don’t have figures, but I’d bet a lot more of the money in the Catholic school budget actually goes to teaching the children than does in the public school one.
Now, I’ve been living around hear since 1993 and my taxes have ranged steadily upward over time and income, But let’s say they average 4k/year. That’s 68k I pay for the privilege of not educating my children in public school, and I will continue to pay it forever.
Which would be fine, because I’m doing well. It would be fine if I was getting value for it. Instead, what I’m doing is enriching a corrupt system that is doing a poor and wasteful job of providing a fourth rate education.
Clearly, I’m not getting good value for my tax dollar. Oh, and the school district gets about $5,000,000 in Federal help in it’s 104 million dollar budget, so it’s not like the Federal Government is really helping.
So, on this count, I think it’s pretty clear that the government is not giving me anything. It is taking.
Next?
I do. And, you know what? I think I get a reasonable value for my Federal tax dollars that get spent on highways, and I think get reasonable value for the tax dollars I pay in gasoline tax. The roads in my experience are pretty safe, convenient, well-maintained, etc. Good job here.
Again, the government isn’t really giving me anything. These are my tax dollars at work.
I pay state and local taxes which support the police force, as does everybody else. A good job here. But this is not government giving me anything. I and everybody else are paying for it with tax dollars.
I live in a farm area. When I lived in New Jersey it was awful. If the government was supposed to be protecting the air and the environment they did a pretty shitty job in New Jersey. The government doesn’t get any credit for me choosing a rural environment.
I’m in finance. I really can’t say that the government did a good job in protecting me or anybody else from fraud and ensuring aboveboard business practices considering what just happened. Due to the Government’s involvement in the rampantly corrupt and incompetant Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, I would have to say not only did the government create an environment rampant with fraud and predatory business practices, they participated in it. So… no.
I don’t think anybody can really claim that they got good value for their tax dollars, and this is the most heavily regulated industry in the country. It was an utter and inexcusable failure.
[quote\Does your employer require you (and your daughter) to work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, in hazardous and health-endangering conditions?[/quote]
The government’s done an ok job here. Again though I am paying for it with my tax dollars, as are you. We’ve gotten value. But the government didn’t give it to us. We bought it. There is a difference that you seem to be missing.
Anyway, I would personally pass on these protections. I think I can take care of myself. I concede though that this is a valid role for government, and one it’s done ok with.
Yup. Good job here by the Gov. But again, I pay for it with my tax dollars. It is not being given to me.
Bullshit. Government didn’t do it for us. We did it. We created government as a society for the good of society, and we fund it to do things. If I go to a restaurant and eat, they don’t give me food. I pay for it.
No. Absolutely not. Where do you come off thinking the government is your Mommy. It’s not. Where do you come off thinking that the government is the boss or the provider? It’s not. You are. Government works for you. Or. At least it’s supposed to. More often than not, I think government works for itself and those in it. That’s what bureaucracies do. They do it even when we have choice and they are regulated. The government is a mammoth unchecked bureacracy. It is rife with self-serving corruption and waste, and you are paying for it.
Doubtless as a left-leaning individual you think corporations can be corrupt and dangerous in their ruthless pursuit of the dollar, right? Corporations don’t pursue dollars. The people in them and the shareholders pursue the dollars. There’s nothing inherently evil in the structure of a corporation, only in the people in it.
Like a corporation, the mother of all corporations, the people in the government protect themselves and the bureaucracy they make a living off of. The government is the biggest business in the country and the only one that is unregulated. You may laugh at the fallacy of self-regulation in the private sector, but the gov’s is even more unchecked. Every bad thing that can happen in a corporation, happens in the government.
A government can give you nothing you do not already have. It just takes.
I live in a society based on mutual benefit. We provide for each other. Government does not do it. It is merely the instrument by which we provide for each other. It is however an instrument that has gotten out of control, and become wasteful and self-interested and is in definite need of being scaled back and reformed. The last thing it needs is more power and control. The last thing any citizen should feel is greatful to the government.
The guy’s worth over 50 billion dollars. I don’t think private security would be an issue for him on any reasonable scale that he might use. So, no.
I suppose you are right in principle here. It’s not the government so much (beyond the extent to which it’s dragging it’s feet to manipulate you politically,) it’s society that is depriving you of your rights. I stand corrected on this item.
I didn’t mean to spark a tangent here, but the issue is not specifically that you directly benefit from public education. Of course, that’s the easiest to understand, but to sell computers or have a market for your accounting skills or have the benefit of others who will make the technological advances in printers or telecommunications infrastructure or shipping or health care provision, you need to live in a society that provides a suitable educational base for more than just you. That’s how you benefit and that’s how there is an adequate context to allow you to make the money you make.
Seems like conservatives wouldn’t have trouble with it if the terms were “invest in infrastructure” instead of pay taxes so that America can continue.