Liberals hate gays

Obama is the entirety of the Democratic party, nor of liberals. If you’ve been paying any attention whatsoever, there are many liberals, myself included, who are pissed at him for trying to compromise with the right on many issues. DADT is but one of them.

And, again, the passage or not of the repeal of DADT is in the hands of the Republicans. Unless the Democrats get a filibuster proof majority, which isn’t going to happen soon, the Republicans can block, just as they’ve already done.

You keep focusing solely on the Democrats, solely on Obama, and completely ignoring the Repubican party’s role in this crap. You try and blame the Democrats, who passed the repeal in the house, who tried in the Senate, and completely ignore the role of the Republicans. Well, except when it suits your purpose. Then you’ll pick and choose the LCR case and pretend it means something about republicans as a whole.

I’m not ignoring the republicans, it’s just there doing nothing exceptional, behaving true to form.

Of course the Republicans are going to block it. Of course it’s in their hands. How did it get there? Who put it there?

Who snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory, overturned the stay, and through it right back into an impossible to win situation?

Sorry, he is the leader of the Democrats. He’s the President.

You seem amused when I say the Democrats aren’t trying to win this and ask for what evidence I have, bur I can’t think of a more concrete example of trying to lose than what the Democrats and Obama have just done.

It’s like if you threw a baby into a lion’s cage and then said “hey look at that mean lion eating the baby!”

We all know the Republicans will fight it, but the Democrats are supposed to be supporting it. This is what I was saying before about it being set up to fail. It’s posturing. They want to look like they ate supporting you without actually accomplishing anything. Accomplishing something would be bad.

And this just in, like yesterday.

Most troops wouldn’t oppose serving with gays, survey finds

This could well be the final nail. Now, on what basis can the Pubbies oppose ending DADT? The brass are on board, the rank and file are on board. Pubbies are ever eager to use the patriotism ploy, to drape their lies in red, white, and blue bunting and blither about how much they love our heroes. Well, it appears our heroes are on the right side of this, so now what?

Nothing, is what, they’re screwed, blued and tattooed. Now, they have to scramble to find a rationale to erase all their previous statements, because they are born again, they have seen the light, no, wait, they always thought so, really, it was just…it was just…well, there’s a very good reason.

I think it will be this: we were never really against repeal, we just wanted to be sure it was done the right way, not some activist judge, not some overreaching on the part of Obama. We just wanted to be sure it was done in the Congress, the right way, and now that Obama has served us this lovely platter of crow, we are going to chow down with great enthusiasm, nom, nom, nom. Yummy!

Boys and girls, pals and gals, a great injustice is about to be torn down. Yeee-haw!

Like a fucking dog with a bone. Just keep repeating the same thing, pointing out the same issue over and over.

We are not amused. I’m frustrated that you seem to think that the “try to lose” extends to everyone involved the fight for equal rights for homosexuals, including the ACLU, the Serviceman’s legal network, and all the other liberal groups involved in the legal challenges to DADT. I’m frustrated when you, by most accounts a relatively intelligent person, comes up with unsupported conclusions like that to support his political beliefs.

They accomplished something. They passed the repeal in the house. They tried to accomplish something and get it passed in the Senate, but couldnt’ BECAUSE OF REPUBLICANS.

I think we’re simply at the point of repeating ourselves. I’ve made my points, you’ve made yours. And while we agree that Obama has messed up by appealling the DADT ruling (although there are reasons for it), I think some of the assertions you’ve made in this thread are completely unsupportable.

Obama made a mistake? A mistake implies an accident or a miscalculation.

What mistake?

Does Obama think it is going to pass in the Senate? Does he think the Republicans are not going to block it?

Does he think he is going to win big on Tuesday and suddenly have enough votes to push things through?

I don’t think any of those things are credible.

How the can you call it a mistake? What was the error? What was the miscalculation?

Hmmmmm?

If there is no error or miscalculation, then it is not a mistake. It is deliberate.

The deliberate consequence is that DADT remains in place now, and repealing it becomes untenable after the election.

Your right. Is not one man. He doesn’t make these decisions in a vacuum. He has strategists and planners helping him. He works with the entire Democratic power base.

It is deliberate. They don’t want it overturned. They just want to be seen as trying, and let Republicans take the heat for the failure. That strengthens their base.

You think I’m wrong? Ok. What was the mistake? What didn’t go the way they thought it would?

Really Scylla? A semantic argument over a word?

Whatever. Enjoy yourself.

Hardly. This has been the whole focus of our discussion.

I maintain that the DEmocratic structure does not want DADT repealled, but just wants to be seen to try. It was overturned and a democratic president put it back, saying he did want it overturned, but in another way which would happen by the end of the year.

There seems to be no way that that will actually happen.
You are saying that they really want to but made a mistake which is why it won’t be repealled.

Asking what the mistake was and how they made it seems like areasonable question to me, but if you don’t want to answer it that’s ok with me.

You’re not really surprised by this are you? I used to call his construction of arguments around these kinds of tortured, twisty and deceitful spurts of pseudo-logic Scylla-jisms. (That is, until I was chided by elucidator for doing so. Hey, I found it funny.)

Is there an imaginary poster named Mamlet or Hamler that maybe you’re confusing me with? Because that’s not been the focus at all of what I’ve been talking about.

Wow. A “democratic structure”? That includes ACLU, all the liberals groups, HRC, all working together to make sure … that they fail miserably at what the try to accomplish.

Fascinating.

I am not saying that. I wish I were more surprised that you apparently aren’t paying enough attention to understand what I am actually saying, though.

It won’t be repealled because OF REPUBLICANS. They have the votes in the Senate to pass it, but THE REPUBLICANS filibustered it. They did pass it in the house. And Obama will sign it if passed. No “mistake”, just anti-homosexual feelings by legislators and their constituents, a majority of which (not all by any stretch) are Republicans.

Fine. I won’t answer a question about something you made up.

Yup. Namecalling always seemed to be your forte. Unsurprising as you don’t seem to have the intellectual chops necessary to construct an argument.

Hamlet:

Yes. I know. And who put it back in front of the Republicans to be knocked down after it was already declared unconstitutional?

Do you blame the lion that eats the baby or the guy who throws the baby into the lion’s cage?

You seem to be arguing that the guy who throws baby into the lion’s cage really wants to protect it by putting it safe in a cage, and the blame the lion.

I’m saying that’s stupid we all know what the lion is. The only one acting out of character is the guy throwing the lion in the cage “to protect it.”

But yeah, he’s still a good babysitter. Damn those lions.

I like to think I’m skill both in name-calling and constructing arguments. Of course, we are never quite as good as others in recognizing our limitations, are we? Oh yeah, I nearly forgot: dumbass.

Oh I agree. You are equally as skilled in both.

Do you not understand how our government works? Do you understand that a district court ruling is different than bills in Congress? Shall we rewatch that Schoolhouse Rock episode with the different branches of government?

There was no “put[ting] it back in front of the Republicans to be knocked down after it was already declared unconstitutional.” It’s a non-sensical question that should only be asked by someone who has a fundamental misunderstanding of how our government works.

Wow, what a bizarre analogy. Republicans are no more responsible for their anti-homosexual voting record than a lion eating their baby. It’s actually the Democrats fault that the Republicans filibustered the repeal, and have continuously voted against gay rights.

Maybe it’s time to change that ocean of stupidity to Waterworld.

Maybe. It looks to me like you’re deliberately dodging the question I’ve been asking you, and covering up with insults, instead of addressing it.

I’ve asked it about 4 or 5 different ways now and your non-answer tells me enough.

Pointing out that the questions are fundamentally flawed and incredibly stupid is not dodging them.

If the question is why Obama is appealling the ruling in DADT, you’ve had Bricker, Richard Parker, and me all provide you answers to that in this thread. But since not a one of them was “he hates gays”, you might have missed them.

Covering up with insults instead of addressing the issue is dodging. You’re still doing it.

I read those parts. The “follow everybody to the mess hall” explanation wasn’t quite satisfying. They hold no water, as there certainly does seem to be precedent for what court rulings a president decides to challenge and enforce.

Seeking a stay so promptly was only one of several possible courses. He could have accepted the decision, or simply filed an appeal as has been pointed out. You seem to think that he was forced to seek a stay. It was a choice.

You yourself characterized it as a mistake.

It has not Bern reasonably shown that the Prez was forced to seek a stay.
If this makes you uncomfortable, we can stop. After 9 pages I’m tired of the vitriol so if you do want to continue, I’ll ask you to be civil and I’ll do the same

Republicans are like baby-eating lions, now?

Oh, I don’t think he was forced to. There are lots of good reasons for him to do so, not least of which is his constitutional role as the executive. I think he wanted to. I think he either knew, or was willing to bet, that the survey I offered above was going to reflect precisely what it does reflect: an acceptance of gay soldiers amongst the rank and file.

I think what he wants is for this to be brought to Congress and decided there. Just as I said, an executive order can be overturned, so can a court order. But the law is the law, and that’s what he wants. I think he’s right.

As well, there is the additional political benefit of cramming this right down the Republicans throats. Dollars to doughnut holes, Pubbies will be scrambling to try to find a rationale that makes their previous opposition look like total support, because this one is a loser. The public is behind it, the brass is behind it, the troops are behind it (Our heroes!).

Not even a slam dunk. Just walk up to the net and drop it in.

But let us not forget the Republican who so bravely stood for the repeal, and all their public statements to that effect! Actually, I seem to have forgotten, but luckily Scylla is at hand, and can list for our approval the many, many Republicans who fit this description.

Too many? OK, maybe just the top fifty. Twenty? Ten?

Boy, that would sure show us, huh, Scylla? Here’s your chance, really make us eat some crow. We cringe in dread.

“Obama may see it as his sworn duty to uphold the laws of the United States. Since DADT was passed by Congress and signed by the President at the time, Obama may feel that it is his duty to defend that law, even if he personally disagrees with it.”

"Seems to me the President and any Federal judge could nullify any law they wanted.

Judge: This law’s unconstitutional.
President: Okay.

Done. Two-thirds of the goverment cancelling out the remaining third. I’m pretty sure the system wasn’t set up for that."

“Obama has come out against DADT, but he wants congress to get rid of it.”

“Correct. Obama has a duty to defend this, and he’s acting correctly.”

“Another reason for the DoJ to appeal court decisions such as this one is to make sure that the issue goes all the way to the Supreme Court.”

“I think “don’t ask, don’t tell” is wrong. I think it doesn’t serve our national security, which is why I want it overturned. I think that the best way to overturn it is for Congress to act. In theory, we should be able to get 60 votes out of the Senate. The House has already passed it. And I’ve gotten the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to say that they think this policy needs to be overturned – something that’s unprecedented.”

"I was very deliberate in working with the Pentagon so that I’ve got the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs being very clear about the need to end this policy. That is part of a strategy that I have been pursuing since I came into office. And my hope is that will culminate in getting this thing overturned before the end of the year.

Now, as usual, I need 60 votes. So I think that, Joe, the folks that you need to be having a really good conversation with – and I had that conversation with them directly yesterday, but you may have more influence than I do – is making sure that all those Log Cabin Republicans who helped to finance this lawsuit and who feel about this issue so passionately are working the handful of Republicans that we need to get this thing done."

“On the other hand, it would be highly unusual for the government to fail to appeal a district court decision striking down a federal statute. A failure to appeal this case will likely generate substantial criticism.”

“The Administration can wait until after the elections to decide whether or not to appeal. It can take the position now that government lawyers are reviewing options. The Administration can then see where things stand after the November elections.”

"olitics aside, there are at least two good legal reasons for the government to appeal. First, Judge Phillips’s decision, based heavily on trial testimony, reads very much like a ruling in an as-applied case rather than on a facial challenge. The government took the position in the case that on a facial challenge the only relevant evidence is the statute, legislative findings, and legislative history. (The government therefore called no witnesses.) Judge Phillips rejected this argument and issued a ruling based on a wide range of evidentiary materials. The government has an interest in pushing back on what defending a facial challenge requires.

Second, the government has an interest in asserting deference to the military particularly in times of war. In rejecting the interests the government asserted in cohesion and readiness, Judge Phillips deemed President Obama’s public statements against DADT as an “admission” by the government that DADT serves no government interest. Judge Phillips also relied upon the military’s practices of discharge under DADT, in particular the smaller number of discharged gay and lesbian service members during wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as evidence that DADT serves no purpose. It is odd for a court to accept as evidence a statement by the Commander in Chief that an existing military policy is unwise and through a carefully coordinated process should be altered and at the same time dismiss as serving no interest the actual policies of the military that is overseen by the Commander in Chief. It is also odd that in a time of war and when military resources are stretched thin, the military’s decision not to implement fully a policy becomes proof that the policy has no point."

“The answer is one that perhaps only a lawyer could love: There is a long tradition that the Justice Department defends laws adopted by Congress and signed by a president, regardless of whether the president in office likes them.”

All from this thread or linked in this thread. Again, not a one included “he hates gays”. And none that included “He really doesn’t want to win” either.