Liberals hate gays

[villa]

Sometimes politics isn’t about winning, it’s about not losing. And while I don’t see the positives for the gay community in voting Democrat right now, I certainly can see the negatives of significant gains for the new, improved, more Teabag friendly GOP.

The opposite strikes me as the sort of revolutionary defeatism shown by the Far Left in the 80’s in England - the idea that Thatcher should win again because then conditions will worsen leading to the proletariat rising. Didn’t work too well then, either.

[Ludovic]

@villa

The opposite strikes me as the sort of revolutionary defeatism shown by the Far Left in the 80’s in England - the idea that Thatcher should win again because then conditions will worsen leading to the proletariat rising. Didn’t work too well then, either.

Do you know who ELSE came into power partly because the Far Left thought it would precipitate a proletariat rising? :eek:

[VinylTurnip]

Don Knotts?

[YogSothoth]

@Miller

So, let me get this straight: A candidate who is not supportive of racial or religious minorities is not to be tolerated. Even if he’s the rock-solid in support of sexual minorities, we have a moral obligation to reject his candidacy, for the good of “us.” But, if a candidate supports racial and religious minorities, but will actively work against sexual minorities, well, that’s just the sort of sacrifice we have to make for the good of the cause.

You make it seem like Obama and the Democrats are actively working against sexual minorities just because they are not as pro-gay as gays would like them to be. :rolleyes:

[Miller]

@villa

Sometimes politics isn’t about winning, it’s about not losing. And while I don’t see the positives for the gay community in voting Democrat right now, I certainly can see the negatives of significant gains for the new, improved, more Teabag friendly GOP.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting that gays don’t vote Democrat. I’m going to the polls in November, and I’m going to vote a straight Democratic ticket, like I do most every year. But I’m not doing it out of any great love or loyalty to the Democratic party. Gays are in the position of a man with a gun to his head. The thing to remember is that the Republicans aren’t holding the gun. They *are *the gun. It’s the Democrats who have it pressed against our forehead.

[villa]

That’s kind of inevitable for progressives/lefties/socialists too. The only times I have ever voted for a candidate I have felt significant support for are the times I have lived in extreme right wing constitutencies, so my candidate stands zero chance of winning.

[Miller]

@YogSosoth

You make it seem like Obama and the Democrats are actively working against sexual minorities just because they are not as pro-gay as gays would like them to be. :rolleyes:

I like how you make a desire to be treated equal sound so unreasonable.

[sqweels]

Perhaps the Dems are being way too cowardly, but time is on your side. Support for LGBT rights is rising among young people, but in the short term, it may be pragmatic to avoid provoking too much of a right-wing backlash until the demographics improve.

(The thread title is certainly full of crap, tho)

[villa]

@sqweels

Perhaps the Dems are being way too cowardly, but time is on your side. Support for LGBT rights is rising among young people, but in the short term, it may be pragmatic to avoid provoking too much of a right-wing backlash until the demographics improve.

Time was on Rosa Parks’ side too, and I am sure the pragmatic course would have been to take her black ass to the back of the bus.

[Miller]

@sqweels

Perhaps the Dems are being way too cowardly, but time is on your side. Support for LGBT rights is rising among young people, but in the short term, it may be pragmatic to avoid provoking too much of a right-wing backlash until the demographics improve.

This is the other popular argument for excusing a lack of Democratic support for a strong gay-rights agenda. The central problem with it, aside from its almost bottomless cowardice, is that it ignores the central driving force behind improving the demographics. Support for gay rights is rising precisely because we are pushing for it. If we stop pushing, the demographics will stop improving.

[elucidator]

Is it about us, or is it about you? Are you part of a general movement for human equality, or are you only in it for yourselves? I favor the advance of gay rights first and foremost because I believe it to be what is right for our country, secondarily, because it is good for you. Same with Latinos, same with any other struggling minority.

As a practical fact, your demand that the Dems put your agenda at the very forefront of their efforts is probably counter-productive, it plays into the hands of our mutual enemies. Who would like nothing better than to Balkanize the progressive movement into mutually competitive, squabbling groups. It is their wettest dream.

Latinos, for instance, tend to be rather conservative as regards their religion, as do blacks. But they are on board with us, moving towards the light. If they Dems were to place your concerns above theirs, what happens then? Not that they vote Pubbie, but that they just don’t vote.

And you lose. We lose. We.
And a gun to your forehead, put there by the Dems? Not just a little dramatic, wildly dramatic, near hysterical. What, are you on the Committee to Preserve Gay Stereotypes?

[Daffyd]

@elucidator

As a practical fact, your demand that the Dems put your agenda at the very forefront of their efforts is probably counter-productive, it plays into the hands of our mutual enemies.

At the forefront? That’s pretty laughable when it comes to Obama. Really, he brought it on himself - he went on and on before the election telling the LGBT community how much he supported us, and how voting for him instead of the other Democratic candidates would be good for us. Instead we got lies about how he “needs to enforce laws he doesn’t agree with” - Clinton refused to enforce discharging soldiers with HIV.

And as Miller said, I’ll still be voting Democratic - Jerry Brown and so on in California, along with Congress and the Senate, but I can guarantee when it’s time to vote for President in 2012, unless Obama suddenly does an about face on LGBT rights, he can kiss my vote goodbye.

[Miller]

@elucidator

Is it about us, or is it about you? Are you part of a general movement for human equality, or are you only in it for yourselves? I favor the advance of gay rights first and foremost because I believe it to be what is right for our country, secondarily, because it is good for you. Same with Latinos, same with any other struggling minority.

There is no “us,” elucidator. We are not a part of your “us.” We have not been invited to your party. We have been told to stand by the door, on a vague promise that someday, maybe, we might be allowed a seat at the table, so long as we’re quiet and do what we’re told.

The irony, here, is that I’m not even saying that we should do anything different, because we simply do not have a choice in the matter. We have no other option than to content ourselves with your table scraps. But this isn’t enough for you, is it, luci? You want a little grovelling to go along with it.

As a practical fact, your demand that the Dems put your agenda at the very forefront of their efforts is probably counter-productive, it plays into the hands of our mutual enemies. Who would like nothing better than to Balkanize the progressive movement into mutually competitive, squabbling groups. It is their wettest dream.

Latinos, for instance, tend to be rather conservative as regards their religion, as do blacks. But they are on board with us, moving towards the light. If they Dems were to place your concerns above theirs, what happens then? Not that they vote Pubbie, but that they just don’t vote.

And that’s my entire argument in a nutshell. Gays don’t matter to Democrats at all. If catering to gay voters causes a conflict with Latino voters, gays get thrown under the bus. If catering to gay voters causes a conflict with black voters, gays get thrown under the bus. If catering to gay voters causes a conflict with Christian voters, gays get thrown under the bus. Where is the “us” here, elucidator? Why does all the teamwork, and pulling together, and uniting in a common cause, always work against our interests? When do the blacks or the Latinos get one of your self righteous “Is it about you, or us?” lectures?

And you lose. We lose. We.

“We” always lose - even when you win.

And a gun to your forehead, put there by the Dems? Not just a little dramatic, wildly dramatic, near hysterical. What, are you on the Committee to Preserve Gay Stereotypes?

Thank you for another demonstration of the deep care and respect for gays held by the Democratic majority. Next time, why don’t you just cut to the chase and call me a fag?

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@elucidator

Is it about us, or is it about you? Are you part of a general movement for human equality, or are you only in it for yourselves? I favor the advance of gay rights first and foremost because I believe it to be what is right for our country, secondarily, because it is good for you. Same with Latinos, same with any other struggling minority.

As a practical fact, your demand that the Dems put your agenda at the very forefront of their efforts is probably counter-productive, it plays into the hands of our mutual enemies. Who would like nothing better than to Balkanize the progressive movement into mutually competitive, squabbling groups. It is their wettest dream.

Latinos, for instance, tend to be rather conservative as regards their religion, as do blacks. But they are on board with us, moving towards the light. If they Dems were to place your concerns above theirs, what happens then? Not that they vote Pubbie, but that they just don’t vote.

And you lose. We lose. We.
And a gun to your forehead, put there by the Dems? Not just a little dramatic, wildly dramatic, near hysterical. What, are you on the Committee to Preserve Gay Stereotypes?

Quit. It. You’re making us look like heartless pricks.

Barack Obama is absolutely in the wrong for his refusal to fight for gay rights, and with him are most of the democratic leadership. The way they simultaneously court and screw over gay people is disgusting, and is a depressing consequence of our two-party system. I completely sympathize with the non-hetero people who sit out national elections in protest. Keep fighting.

[elucidator]

Christ on a crutch, I’m sure glad Karl Rove doesn’t read the Dope, I hate the idea of him chuckling over this, as you guys make his fondest dreams come true.

Seriously? You don’t get it? This plays right into their hands, they want nothing better…they can’t get nothing better…than for the progressive side to start in squabbling and fighting each other.

I’m not gay, latino, black, or anything in particular, unless superannuated peckerwoods are a minority group. I’m not in it for me, I’m in it for us. I’m a flag-waving, red blooded, all-American radical lefty, and I’m in it for the Dream. The long delayed dream of the best, most just, most humane nation in human history, America, fuck yeah!

What happens when you get yours? You will, almost certainly, the tide is with you. What happens then, do you stop pulling on this end of the rope, wander over to the side lines and watch the show?

Or is it about justice, is it about us?

And as a practical matter, coalition politics is all you got. What are you gonna do, take off into the mountains and start a revolution? No? Well, then, it looks like your stuck with making alliances, making compromises, two steps forward one step back.

And you need the liberals. God Help Us, the mealy-mouth, wishy-washy, luke-warm liberals. Freak them out, and they will slide away from you, and your agenda will be retarded, held back. You want to win? Or do you want to congratulate yourself for the purity of your agenda while you cut off your dick to spite your face?

I suppose if you could elect a carefully vetted gay administration, that would work. But if you could do that, you already would have won, wouldn’t you? If you could throw the entire massive weight of your electoral power, why, you wouldn’t need to compromise and make alliances, you could just do it!

And if you get what you want, and find this whole tug of war tiresome and tedious…which it is, Goddess knows!..well, I suppose you will just wander off somewhere else. I’ll still be here. Because I do it for us. Its taking a lot longer than we hoped, and we could use your help, if you’ve nothing better to do.

[Der_Trihs]

@elucidator

Christ on a crutch, I’m sure glad Karl Rove doesn’t read the Dope, I hate the idea of him chuckling over this, as you guys make his fondest dreams come true.

Seriously? You don’t get it? This plays right into their hands, they want nothing better…they can’t get nothing better…than for the progressive side to start in squabbling and fighting each other.

The point being made, is that’s what is already happening; you just want the people playing punching bag to not complain, not fight back, and to pay the people doing the punching.

@elucidator

I’m not gay, latino, black, or anything in particular, unless superannuated peckerwoods are a minority group. I’m not in it for me, I’m in it for us. I’m a flag-waving, red blooded, all-American radical lefty, and I’m in it for the Dream. The long delayed dream of the best, most just, most humane nation in human history, America, fuck yeah!

That is hardly an accurate description of America. It’s been a long time since America was some kind of leader in social justice.

@elucidator

Or is it about justice, is it about us?

Apparently not justice, or they’d be getting some.

@elucidator

And you need the liberals. God Help Us, the mealy-mouth, wishy-washy, luke-warm liberals. Freak them out, and they will slide away from you, and your agenda will be retarded, held back.

That’s something that has been repeatedly acknowledged by the people you are criticizing. They just don’t expect anything from the so-called liberals.

[elucidator]

Well, they ain’t much, I’ll grant you that. But there’s a fuck of a lot of them. Now, have you got something to replace representational democracy, and the power to make it stick? No? Then you are going to cut deals with the liberals. Or lose. Your call.

…That is hardly an accurate description of America…

Yeah, Der, I know. Hence the words “long delayed dream”. You miss that part?

[Lakai]

Elucidator, there is a middle ground between the Democratic collation falling apart and Palin becoming our next President, and LGBT citizens voting for Democrats while getting nothing in return.

The Democrats can embrace gay marriage rights and push them toward mainstream acceptance.

Or Democrats can lose and moderate Republicans won’t actively try to limit gay rights.

LGBT citizens don’t have everything to lose by not voting for Democrats.

[boytyperanma]

I think what continues to be argued is the other side is so bad if you let them win it means certain doom for gay rights. I don’t buy into that theory. That other side still polls with half the country, they are still Americans and not everyone of them believes gays should be second class citizens.

In the height of Republican power after a presidential campaign promising an anti-marriage constitutional amendment to their base they didn’t even try to deliver on it when they could. They couldn’t have passed it if they tried and it was not just the Democrats holding them back. Enough moderate Republicans still exist that attempting to put gays into concentration camps isn’t going to fly even under their rule. The Republicans that support gay rights certainly don’t represent enough of the party to push gay rights forward but they are enough to stop rights from being rolled back.

Gay voters have choices and voting Democrat isn’t the only option. I have plenty of other issues beyond gay rights that effect my vote. If the Democrats were willing to be honest and tell me they aren’t going to push for gay rights, it’s a hard blow to accept but I can move on to the other issues important to me. But they aren’t honest, they promise fierce advocacy and offer whining complacency and cowardice. If they aren’t honest on an issue very important to me it destroys my ability to believe they’ll be honest on any of the other issues dear to me.

Without strong support from the Democrats gay rights have still been moving steadily forward. Equality is inevitable with or without their support. Gays do not need the Democrats.

The Democrats however are only winning elections by narrow margins. Margins where gay voters as small as our percentage may be do effect the outcome. The Democrats can’t really afford for us to stay home or even worse vote Republican. The Democrats need us. Right now they are losing their support from the gay community, If they want to fight us in the courts or withhold their support they are welcome to do so. Lets not forget in the filibuster of DADT there were three Democrats. Within the party support is not universal and a Democrat voting against gay rights doesn’t seem to suffer any consequence of party politics

I think it would be best for the country if one of the parties was willing to pick up the ball and run with gay rights, the Democrats being the best for that job, but absent that I’ll stick to victory after victory in the courts and voting for a third party candidate that doesn’t lie to me.

[elucidator]

…LGBT citizens don’t have everything to lose by not voting for Democrats…

Everything? No way, its already gone too far, the rock is rolling down hill, and maybe it could be slowed, but I very much doubt it can be stopped.

At at least part of that is the stupidity of our enemies, bless their shriveled little hearts! Like the example you point to, gay marriage. They screamed themselves hoarse, setting their hair on fire, “everybody come see the horror of gay marriage”. And they plastered pictures all over everywhere, come look! Come see!

And America did. And America saw a couple of nice middle aged ladies cutting a wedding cake and said “Hey, the looks kinda like Aunt Edith! Sorta, well, you know, normal. And that guy marrying that other guy, he looks a lot like Fred from Accounting. Hey! That is Fred from Accounting!”

Laugh? I thought I’d surely die, I love it when the Forces of Darkness step on their own dicks, I love it when they overestimate the stupidity of the American people, hallelujah, hosanna, and yeeee-haw!

Truth be told, I’m not a Democrat either, I can’t bring myself to do that. But I’ve (probably) never voted for anyone else and I’ve never EVER not voted. Its not doing my duty like maybe getting shot at, but its still a duty.

Choosing is a duty, it comes with the privilege of voting, it is as close to sacred as a secular order can offer. It is your duty to choose, even between two ugly bettys. And so long as the Dems are even one iota more favorable to justice and equality, I’m going to vote that one iota. Every fucking time! And if its a pain in the butt and its too slow and I don’t like cutting deals, tough shit. Man up and choose.

I think Obama’s judgement on DADT was flawed, but I have no doubt it was well meaning. And I sure as hell trust his judgment better than the other guy, and thats all I get. But I do think he underestimated the degree of acceptance within the ranks, he could have pulled a Truman and it would have worked.

What I see is that he made a placating deal with the brass hats, to respect their wishes for a more gradual transition. Which he bought into, on acceptance on their part that it was going to happen, he’s willing to be prudent and cautious about change, but the change* will *happen. Period. Full stop.

Not what I might have chosen, but my chances of being President are just below my chances of marrying Rachel Maddow. But as a second pick, its damned shrewd, and it ends where I wanted it to.

It can be done, it is not impossible, jut goddam difficult! And if enough of us pull on this end of the rope, all together, all pulling the same way, we will win. I’d like it to happen before its time for my dirt nap, but I don’t matter, I’m just one set of hands pulling in this tug of war. And hey! there’s a spot opened up, right next to me! Be proud to have you on board, if you’ve a mind to.