# "Liberals make the best capitalists" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326 "2011-10-30T22:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/41 "2011-10-31T05:05:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Judging from your last line I assume you understand that your earlier lines are a mischaracterization of what liberals believe. But for those who would take it at first value, allow me to rebut. > > Liberals don’t want government handouts in the same sense that conservatives don’t want wars. But liberals generally believe that a social welfare net is necessary the same way that conservatives generally believe a strong military is necessary. Making preparations for an event is not the same as wanting the event to occur. > > Liberals want everyone to be prosperous and conservatives want everyone to be peaceful - they just don’t see these as likely possibilities. liberals _believe_ this. Liberals _want_ that. Quoth the liberals. You got me all convinced now 😉 The notion that by saying something, or wanting something, or believing something you actually change reality around you is an example of magical thinking. Or, shall we say, in this case, _liberal thinking_. The point is, the reality out there is different from what you and your other liberal friends may _believe_ and _want_. And for the people who are bled dry with taxes and whose businesses are destroyed by liberal policies it matters not one iota what it is that you _believe_ and _want_. What matters is, what actually happens. The medieval doctors may have _believed_ that bloodletting is good for health and _wanted_ to cure their patients, but the _reality_ of their actions was hastening their demise. Just like the liberals are hastening the demise of America even as we speak. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/42 "2011-10-31T05:13:32Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > And for the people who are bled dry with taxes and whose businesses are destroyed by liberal policies… Just out of curiosity, how many people do you think fit this description? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/43 "2011-10-31T05:26:28Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That may be true for classical liberalism but not for state-social liberalism of Obama and most of the Democratic Party. Neither of them are liberal. Both are at best moderate right wingers and pretty generic corporatists. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I meant his liberalism is a combination of statism and social liberalism (ie on things like abortion or gay marriage). Please; he’s not some champion of either of those things. He’s had to be pressured into any kind of support; personally I think he’s at least moderately homophobic. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Liberals don’t want government handouts in the same sense that conservatives don’t want wars. But liberals generally believe that a social welfare net is necessary the same way that conservatives generally believe a strong military is necessary. Making preparations for an event is not the same as wanting the event to occur. > > Liberals want everyone to be prosperous and conservatives want everyone to be peaceful - they just don’t see these as likely possibilities. Say what? Conservatives as a whole love war. They just love the chance to bomb brown people or people who follow the wrong religion or the wrong politics or who have something they think we can steal. > [@code\_grey](#): > > liberals _believe_ this. Liberals _want_ that. Quoth the liberals. You got me all convinced now 😉 > > The notion that by saying something, or wanting something, or believing something you actually change reality around you is an example of magical thinking. Or, shall we say, in this case, _liberal thinking_. My, what a great example of psychological projection. It’s conservatives not liberals who think they can simply declare reality to be what they want it to be; who think that belief, faith and sheer determination can force the world to be what they want to be. “We make our own reality” is a _conservative_ line. Case in point: > [@code\_grey](#): > > The point is, the reality out there is different from what you and your other liberal friends may _believe_ and _want_. And for the people who are bled dry with taxes and whose businesses are destroyed by liberal policies it matters not one iota what it is that you _believe_ and _want_. We have historically low taxes, essentially no “liberal policies”, and as a whole the economy has historically done worse under conservatives. You are trying to blame things that are simply not real. > [@code\_grey](#): > > Just like the liberals are hastening the demise of America even as we speak. There aren’t a significant number of liberals in this country and they don’t have the power to do much of anything. And the most powerful group right now working to destroy America in order to save it are the conservatives. The recent case of them taking the economy hostage over politics being an example. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/44 "2011-10-31T07:01:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Say what? Conservatives as a whole love war. They just love the chance to bomb brown people or people who follow the wrong religion or the wrong politics or who have something they think we can steal. I think you mischaracterize conservatives as much as others mischaracterize liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/45 "2011-10-31T07:03:48Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > liberals _believe_ this. Liberals _want_ that. Quoth the liberals. You got me all convinced now 😉 > > The notion that by saying something, or wanting something, or believing something you actually change reality around you is an example of magical thinking. Or, shall we say, in this case, _liberal thinking_. > > The point is, the reality out there is different from what you and your other liberal friends may _believe_ and _want_. Among the many misconceptions you have, you seem to be unable to tell the difference between my saying what liberals believe and my saying what I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/46 "2011-10-31T07:26:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think you mischaracterize conservatives as much as others mischaracterize liberals. I’ve been watching conservatives all my life push for war, cheer for war. If they don’t like war they’ve certainly done an excellent job of pretending otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/47 "2011-10-31T13:50:14Z")
> [@JRDelirious\[/quote](#): > > ``` > ISTM what set up Linden's line of argument that "liberals make the best capitalists" was actually the other party's surprise at learning of Jobs' personal liberalism. > > ``` They were surprised? His political affiliation was well known-- it didn’t surprise me at all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/48 "2011-10-31T14:09:30Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I meant his liberalism is a combination of statism and social liberalism (ie on things like abortion or gay marriage). Obama opposes gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/49 "2011-11-01T00:29:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Neither of them are liberal. Both are at best moderate right wingers and pretty generic corporatists. Please; he’s not some champion of either of those things. He’s had to be pressured into any kind of support; personally I think he’s at least moderately homophobic. [/QUOTE] He considers abortion pretty much a settle issue and as a smart social liberal knows that the best way to legalize gay marriage is a state by state battle. Congress is not going to approve a constitutional amendment either way on gay marriage. > [@](#): > > Say what? Conservatives as a whole love war. They just love the chance to bomb brown people or people who follow the wrong religion or the wrong politics or who have something they think we can steal. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/50 "2011-11-01T00:35:24Z")
Well, Henry Ford was a pretty good capitalist, but as a liberal could have used improvement . . . ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/51 "2011-11-01T00:39:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, Henry Ford was a pretty good capitalist, but as a liberal could have used improvement . . . He had symapathies with the National _Socialist_ Party, didn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/52 "2011-11-01T00:55:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, Henry Ford was a pretty good capitalist, but as a liberal could have used improvement . . . He wasn’t a liberal, but he was closer than what passes for conservative these days. As said, he acknowledged that workers actually contribute to the economy and famously made a point of paying them enough to buy his own products. By modern Republican standards that would make him a flaming liberal. Of course, the majority of humanity are flaming liberals by the standards of the Republicans; they are narrow fringe extremists. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Please; he’s not some champion of either of those things. He’s had to be pressured into any kind of support; personally I think he’s at least moderately homophobic. > > He considers abortion pretty much a settle issue and as a smart social liberal knows that the best way to legalize gay marriage is a state by state battle. He is not a social liberal. This is a man who invited an anti-homosexual preacher to make a speech at his inauguration; you might a well claim that a President who invited a KKK lead to make a speech at his inauguration wasn’t racist. Obama has spent much of his Administration repeatedly slapping the homosexual community in the face. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Such a cogent argument; surely I will be forced to reject a lifetime of observation in favor of it. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/53 "2011-11-01T01:07:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He wasn’t a liberal, but he was closer than what passes for conservative these days. As said, he acknowledged that workers actually contribute to the economy and famously made a point of paying them enough to buy his own products. By modern Republican standards that would make him a flaming liberal. Of course, the majority of humanity are flaming liberals by the standards of the Republicans; they are narrow fringe extremists. He was also a propnent of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. > [@](#): > > He is not a social liberal. This is a man who invited an anti-homosexual preacher to make a speech at his inauguration; you might a well claim that a President who invited a KKK lead to make a speech at his inauguration wasn’t racist. Obama has spent much of his Administration repeatedly slapping the homosexual community in the face. Rick Warren is a theological liberal, he does have moral qualms about homosexuality though. And I wouldn’t call a man who has overturned DADT and passed anti-hate crime legislation against homosexuals someone who “slaps” homosexuals “in the face”. > [@](#): > > Such a cogent argument; surely I will be forced to reject a lifetime of observation in favor of it. Plenty of Republicans have opposed wars-look at Ron Paul for example. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/54 "2011-11-01T02:26:31Z")
My impression is that those who have achieved wealth early in life and with little effort, and those who are born rich and who stay that way with little effort tend to be liberal. They are certainly unlikely to resent welfare recipients, harbor allusions about welfare Cadillacs, and so on. Generosity comes easily to these people. Some of these people may work long hours when they are young, but they love their work, and they are confident they will succeed. Those who have had to struggle to get where they are, and those who have struggled without getting very far are more likely to be conservatives. Their struggle for survival kills pity for those beneath them economically. They are likely to overestimate the amount of taxes they pay, and to overestimate the amount the government spends on programs they dislike, such as anti poverty programs. An exception could be those with high goals that they realize they are unlikely to reach. These do respond to the politics of envy. More of these exist in the imaginations of insecure conservatives than in real life, however. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/55 "2011-11-01T05:14:45Z")
Liberals make the best welfare recipients too. Hell, they probably make the best conservatives! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/56 "2011-11-01T06:04:45Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Plenty of Republicans have opposed wars-look at Ron Paul for example. Ron Paul is a Republican in the sense that Lyndon LaRouche is a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/57 "2011-11-01T14:32:55Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Liberals make the best welfare recipients too. Hell, they probably make the best conservatives! Wait a minute. Conservatives make the best liberals! Libertarians make the best bacon, though. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/58 "2011-11-01T18:52:17Z")
This thread makes me the best migraine. Or is that worst, I can’t tell anymore. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/59 "2011-11-01T19:16:13Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > citing Buffett, Gates, Ellison, Brin and Page (the Google guys), Soros, Woz, Allen, - pretty much filling out the top of the Forbes list. That is just stealing the high lights. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326/60 "2011-11-01T19:20:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Libertarians make the best bacon, though. Yes, if that is a euphemism for a form of gardening . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-make-the-best-capitalists/601326.md?page=4)