# Liberals: Would You Support An Abortion Ban In Exchange For A UHC Bill and Immigration Reform **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276 "2010-03-21T22:45:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/181 "2010-03-27T15:50:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What in the world is that supposed to even mean? That fetuses have reasonable chance to become humans. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/182 "2010-03-27T15:55:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m not against all government supported health care plans. I support the existence of such things as Medicaid. But it’s _Socialism!_ ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/183 "2010-03-27T15:57:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That fetuses have reasonable chance to become humans. So does sperm and unfertilized ovum. Is every sperm sacred? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/184 "2010-03-27T17:46:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That fetuses have reasonable chance to become humans. Not if they’re terminated. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/185 "2010-03-27T18:48:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not if they’re terminated. Sure, it is. Human refuse, just like the skin cells we shed every moment of our lives. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/186 "2010-03-27T21:56:44Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That fetuses have reasonable chance to become humans. Only if we let them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/187 "2010-03-28T02:33:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I’m not against all government supported health care plans. I support the existence of such things as Medicaid. Isn’t this kind of a contradiction? What do you think Medicaid IS, **Curtis**? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/188 "2010-03-28T02:41:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Isn’t this kind of a contradiction? What do you think Medicaid IS, **Curtis**? Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Medicaid is the United States health program for eligible individuals and families with low incomes and resources. As I’ve said the main problem I have with the UHC Bill is mandating people to buy insurance in direct violation of the Tenth Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/189 "2010-03-28T02:43:14Z")
And how is that? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/190 "2010-03-28T02:45:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And how is that? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/191 "2010-03-28T04:20:48Z")
I believe she would like you to specify how the health care bill is in violation of the 10th Admendment, specifically including Section 8 of the First Article of the United States Constitution in your reply. In addition it would be helpful to explain how Medicare does not meet your defintion of a violation of the 10th Admendment under these circumstances. Pointing out the specific wording of the UHC Bill that violates the 10th Admentment would be extremely helpful, but probably impossible so it’s okay if you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/192 "2010-03-28T04:56:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That fetuses have reasonable chance to become humans. What is the line between “reasonable” and “unreasonable”, and how did you come up with it? That is to say, if you were presented with a situation and asked whether the being in question had a reasonable or unreasonable chance to become humans, what facts or information would you ask for in order to make that decision? When you first considered the matter of whether fetuses have that reasonable chance or not, what arguments did you construct to come to your conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/193 "2010-03-28T06:58:25Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I do not advocate executing abortionists or sentencing them with first-degree murder. You miss the point. If fetuses were to be treated as the equivalent of already existing people, then the Biblical punishment for fetal death through an act of violence would have been the equivalent to the punishment for the death of any other human through an act of violence. But it was not. In the exact same passage that advocated “an eye for an eye” and a bone for a bone, a fetus was worth only a monetary fine. The importance that _you_ place on fetal life is in direct contradiction to the instructions of scripture. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/194 "2010-03-28T14:32:51Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I do not advocate executing abortionists or sentencing them with first-degree murder. Why don’t you advocate sentencing abortionists for first degree murder? After all, if we buy into your contention that a fetus is entitled to the rights we accord a person, then performing an abortion would constitute murder. And since it’s a pre-meditated act, I don’t see how you can argue from a legal standpoint that it should qualify for a lesser charge such as second-degree murder or manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/195 "2010-03-28T23:27:34Z")
> [@Oldeb](#): > > I believe she would like you to specify how the health care bill is in violation of the 10th Admendment, specifically including Section 8 of the First Article of the United States Constitution in your reply. In addition it would be helpful to explain how Medicare does not meet your defintion of a violation of the 10th Admendment under these circumstances. > > Pointing out the specific wording of the UHC Bill that violates the 10th Admentment would be extremely helpful, but probably impossible so it’s okay if you can’t. Medicare does not require people to be in it-this UHC Bill does mandate insurance thus violating the part where all powers not granted to the federal government is granted to the states or the people. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > What is the line between “reasonable” and “unreasonable”, and how did you come up with it? > > That is to say, if you were presented with a situation and asked whether the being in question had a reasonable or unreasonable chance to become humans, what facts or information would you ask for in order to make that decision? When you first considered the matter of whether fetuses have that reasonable chance or not, what arguments did you construct to come to your conclusion? Once conception happens, the fetus if taken care of has a relatively good chance of surviving-that’s when I draw the line. > [@tumbleddown](#): > > You miss the point. If fetuses were to be treated as the equivalent of already existing people, then the Biblical punishment for fetal death through an act of violence would have been the equivalent to the punishment for the death of any other human through an act of violence. But it was not. In the exact same passage that advocated “an eye for an eye” and a bone for a bone, a fetus was worth only a monetary fine. The importance that _you_ place on fetal life is in direct contradiction to the instructions of scripture. That’s the Old Testament under Mosaic Law. I love it when atheists say “Christians why do you eat pork or wear mixed fabrics”. > [@42fish](#): > > Why don’t you advocate sentencing abortionists for first degree murder? After all, if we buy into your contention that a fetus is entitled to the rights we accord a person, then performing an abortion would constitute murder. And since it’s a pre-meditated act, I don’t see how you can argue from a legal standpoint that it should qualify for a lesser charge such as second-degree murder or manslaughter. Because they do not understand it is murder plus it would be impossible to punish so many people. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/196 "2010-03-28T23:50:14Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Once conception happens, the fetus if taken care of has a relatively good chance of surviving-that’s when I draw the line. It’s not a fetus at conception. And what’s a relatively good chance? Although it’s impossible to know for sure as the majority of miscarriages occur before the woman is even aware of a pregnancy, studies show as many as 1 in 4 pregnancies spontaneously miscarry before the sixth week. That’s a pretty significant amount. After eight weeks, 8% of pregnancies result in miscarriage, and by the beginning of the fetal stage after the 10th week, the risk of miscarriage drops to about 2%. So, you’re right about the relatively decent survival rate of a fetus, you just didn’t get the timing accurate. You can get this information on [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage#Prevalence). I’d recommend some light reading to get better informed. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/197 "2010-03-28T23:52:36Z")
BTW, there’s nothing magic about conception that turns two cells into a person. As you are well aware, a person is composed of millions upon millions of specialized cells. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/198 "2010-03-29T03:07:59Z")
Or, if you do maintain that a single fertilized ovum is a person, then you have to confront the question of whether a [HeLa cell colony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa) is a person. And if it’s not, then what’s the difference between a HeLa cell and that fertilized ovum? Then, you can ask the question of whether a pair of identical twins is one person or two. And if the answer is two, then the follow-up question is when did the number of persons change from one to two? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/199 "2010-03-29T03:27:22Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Medicare does not require people to be in it-this UHC Bill does mandate insurance thus violating the part where all powers not granted to the federal government is granted to the states or the people. That’s quite a stretch there, pard’ner. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/200 "2010-03-29T16:04:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Because they do not understand it is murder plus it would be impossible to punish so many people. So you’re going to ban abortion but not provide any punishment for people performing one? What’s the point of the ban then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276.md?page=11)