# Liberals: Would You Support An Abortion Ban In Exchange For A UHC Bill and Immigration Reform **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276 "2010-03-21T22:45:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/201 "2010-03-29T16:08:40Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In response to a thread about how many religious conservatives object to a UHC bill because they believe it will fund abortions would you support a deal with religious conservatives to support an unilateral ban on abortion by constitutional amendment except if the mother’s life is threatened in exchange for a comprehensive universal health care bill and immigration reform? It would be my personal policy to not cut deals with so called “religious conservatives”. They should not be given any power to decide or influence the law for the rest of us. EVER. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/202 "2010-03-29T16:17:38Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > God, not Christianity. Hell, at least Christianity _exists_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/203 "2010-03-29T16:43:32Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That’s the Old Testament under Mosaic Law. I love it when atheists say “Christians why do you eat pork or wear mixed fabrics”. How do you feel when atheists say arguments based on religious beliefs are nonsense? That’s another reason I would oppose the religious tyranny you favour; your anti-choice argument is entirely without merit and has no rational basis. If it makes you feel better, just pretend aborted fetuses are just collateral damage necessary to maintaining that holy grail, Freedom. I’ve seen you dismiss the deaths of thousands of fetuses that were carried to term in countries Republicans want to bomb as collateral damage, just do the same here. > [@](#): > > Because they do not understand it is murder plus it would be impossible to punish so many people. It isn’t murder in my country or yours. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/204 "2010-03-29T18:26:56Z")
I don’t know if I qualify as a liberal to the op, but I’d advise against it. Negotiation with terrorists is of dubious value. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/205 "2010-03-29T19:52:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Once conception happens, the fetus if taken care of has a relatively good chance of surviving-that’s when I draw the line. But, if you’ll excuse me, that seems more like an emotional “seems like” argument rather than a reasoned one. To you, it seems as though a fertilised egg should be where the line is drawn, but you don’t seem to have any actual reason behind it besides it just looking right to you. I apologise if i’m wrong. Imagine that, tomorrow, for whatever reason, some horrible virus or otherwise widespread medical disaster occurs, which means that miscarriages skyrocket; a fertilised egg in this situation has a considerably lessened chance of surviving, even with the most excellent of care. How lessened a chance would you be willing to accept before you would reconsider whether a fertilised egg falls across this line? To go with an extreme example, if 99% of all pregnancies ended in miscarriage, would you no longer consider conception the point at which the being in question need be treated as a human? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/206 "2010-03-30T01:03:39Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Once conception happens, the fetus if taken care of has a relatively good chance of surviving-that’s when I draw the line. **Curtis** , there IS no fetus. The fetal stage of a pregnancy does not occur until 9 weeks. How many times do we have to point this out??? It would help your argument if you’d at least use the correct terminology and try to educate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/207 "2010-03-30T01:15:44Z")
Cut him some slack, Guin. His sex education has probably been non-existent, other than to tell him what a filthy horrible thing all of human sexuality is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/208 "2010-03-30T06:03:58Z")
Is there some blanket term that covers zygote, embryo, and fetus? Pretend that **Curtis** had used that word instead. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/209 "2010-03-30T07:51:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Is there some blanket term that covers zygote, embryo, and fetus? I’d like to know myself. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/210 "2010-03-30T12:17:18Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Cut him some slack, Guin. His sex education has probably been non-existent, other than to tell him what a filthy horrible thing all of human sexuality is. This is why Augustine of Hippo is first on my list of “Historical figures I’d assassinate if time travel becomes possible.” He had his hedonistic youth and came to Christianity as an adult, becoming celibate only then, but later Christians twisted this into promoting celibacy and chastity from birth, with sex being something icky you gradually accept as a necessary evil, but don’t embrace it too enthusiastically, you sinful perv - you’ll make Baby Jesus cry. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/211 "2010-03-30T17:25:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’d like to know myself. Perhaps we could just say pregnancy? “The pregnancy has a chance blah blah blah” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/212 "2010-03-30T17:30:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Perhaps we could just say pregnancy? “The pregnancy has a chance blah blah blah” Nah - that’d be a tacit recognition that someone existed who was pregnant. Better to ignore any such irrelevant trivia. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/213 "2010-03-30T18:54:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Is there some blanket term that covers zygote, embryo, and fetus? Pretend that **Curtis** had used that word instead. Parasite? It’s true, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/214 "2010-03-30T21:34:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Parasite? It’s true, after all. No, a parasite is something that confers no advantage to the host, while, biologically speaking, offspring confers tremendous advantage to a parent. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/215 "2010-03-30T22:56:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, a parasite is something that confers no advantage to the host, while, biologically speaking, offspring confers tremendous advantage to a parent. It’s not just biological in the cases of humans (and we are really talking about humans, anyway). It’s the norm for children to help out Mom and Dad; often for life. A leech, tapeworm, and a fetus will all feed off their host’s body, but the former two won’t drive her to the doctor when she’s 70. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/216 "2010-03-31T03:10:21Z")
Yeah, all right. Although I think you’re describing children, not zygotes, fetuses, or embryos. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/217 "2010-03-31T03:31:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, a parasite is something that confers no advantage to the host, while, biologically speaking, offspring confers tremendous advantage to a parent. OK, that caught my eye, and in risk of a hijack, you’re referring to the simple act of the parent(s) reproducing their DNA? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/218 "2010-03-31T04:52:42Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Yeah, all right. Although I think you’re describing children, not zygotes, fetuses, or embryos. But by supporting the zygote etc, you get children; by supporting a tapeworm, you get sick. It’s the difference between investment and theft, basically. ---
**Author:** ![GreatStuffMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f04885/32.png) [@GreatStuffMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreatStuffMan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/219 "2010-03-31T09:12:05Z")
No, absolutely not. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/220 "2010-03-31T14:23:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But by supporting the zygote etc, you get children; by supporting a tapeworm, you get sick. It’s the difference between investment and theft, basically. Well, at least the tapeworm won’t nag you to borrow the car. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276.md?page=12)