# Liberals: Would You Support An Abortion Ban In Exchange For A UHC Bill and Immigration Reform **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276 "2010-03-21T22:45:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/141 "2010-03-23T05:57:08Z")
**Curtis** , is this another one of your “abortion debates in disguise” threads? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/142 "2010-03-23T14:03:49Z")
Only in the sense that [this](http://partywiththis.com/product.php?productid=438) is a disguise. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/143 "2010-03-23T15:15:30Z")
Let’s turn this around. **Curtis** , would you support a constitutional amendment banning personal handgun possession in exchange for forbidding the government to ever interfere in the health care market? Perhaps your answer will lead you to understand why no pro-choice person would trade a constitutional right for a piece of social legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/144 "2010-03-24T02:59:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Pretty much. What benefit does the Ku Klux Klan get for harassing and attacking blacks? What benefit did bigoted whites get from separate water fountains, miscegenation laws and so forth? What benefit do people get from forbidding people of the same sex to marry? > > Like it or not, there are and always have been millions of people in the US alone who are motivated mainly by the desire to hurt others. It’s not some rare, exotic behavior. Hmm maybe because they think it’s the murder of millions of lives? You may not think so but perhaps you should understand other people’s opinions. > [@dhkendall](#): > > Personally, being a Christian like Curtis (which shows just what a wide brush “Christian” is if he and I are considered in the same category anywhere) I have similar religous views on abortion. Do I think that those views should be mandated by law? Abso-freaking lutely not!! Religious views (or “morality”) should never be legislated on people, as that’s just forced religious adherence, not genuine religious devotion. If you don’t want an abortion, fine, don’t get one, but don’t mandate religion on those that think different. That’s anti-Biblical! Keep ideas based on yoru particular religious tenets out of these laws! If your religion wants you to not abort, that’s up to your religion, but if your belief system is OK with it, we shoudln’t be forcing another belief system on them! > > (My kingdom for this thread to be in the Pit, there’s so much more that I really want to say that I can’t in a non-Pit thread, only scratching the surface here … ) So then was Martin Luther King Jr. pushing for civil rights imposing his morality on everyone else? I don’t support imposing most of my religious views on society but this one’s critical as it’s the literal murder of millions of babies. > [@Anaamika](#): > > I will only say this: Curtis LeMay, you are dreadfully naive if you think outlawing abortion is going to curtail abortions in anyway. > > I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again. People want there to be less abortions? Education, easy access to birth control, less stigma for using birth control. > > That is the ONLY way you are going to get less abortions and it won’t happen for a couple of generations. We have to think long term. Everyone at my school already knows what birth control is and I doubt outside ultra-Catholic fundamentalists anyone has a stigma associated with birth control. > [@Jas09](#): > > Let’s turn this around. > > **Curtis** , would you support a constitutional amendment banning personal handgun possession in exchange for forbidding the government to ever interfere in the health care market? > > Perhaps your answer will lead you to understand why no pro-choice person would trade a constitutional right for a piece of social legislation. No because I am centre-right on health care and would be opposed to such a measure. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/145 "2010-03-24T03:05:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In response to a thread about how many religious conservatives object to a UHC bill because they believe it will fund abortions would you support a deal with religious conservatives to support an unilateral ban on abortion by constitutional amendment except if the mother’s life is threatened in exchange for a comprehensive universal health care bill and immigration reform? There’s no need. We’ll eventually get those things anyway. The obstacles in the way are just speed bumps. They might slow things down a bit but they can’t stop us from moving forward. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/146 "2010-03-24T03:13:27Z")
The identification of zygotes and embryos as “babies” is purely religious. The attempt to codify them into law as babies is an attempt to codify a purely religious belief that clumps of insentient tissue and eggs with some jizz on them are imbued with magical fairy spirits and need to be protected as though they were actual human beings. It’s not relevant that some people actually _believe_ this nonsense. The desire to enforc equal protection and equal rights is one thing. The desire to use religious definitions for what consitutes a person is another. Wanting equal rights is fine, but support your premise that blastocysts are “people.” Please bear in mind that getting the state to accept your premise requires that the state accept your supernatural belief that non-sentient clumps of tissue are imbued with magic spirits. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/147 "2010-03-24T03:30:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Hmm maybe because they think it’s the murder of millions of lives? You may not think so but perhaps you should understand other people’s opinions. I see no reason to think that the vast majority of them care about the “murder” of “babies”. Their behavior is consistent with the behavior to be expected of people attempting to persecute women. Not with the behavior of people who actually believe that nonsense, or who care in the slightest about the welfare of babies. Rather the opposite; once they force a woman to give birth, they have nothing but disdain and hatred for the baby they forced into the world. They clearly care about the fetus only as far as it can be used as a weapon against women. Nor does calling it murder make sense; a mindless blob of tissue isn’t a person. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > So then was Martin Luther King Jr. pushing for civil rights imposing his morality on everyone else? I don’t support imposing most of my religious views on society but this one’s critical as it’s the literal murder of millions of babies. it’s not murder, not legally and not factually. If you ever do get it declared legally murder, that just means you’ve created a category of murder that is moral. Destroying mindless things is destroying mindless things, whatever label you give it. The fight over civil rights was about fighting for the rights of millions of actual people; not for using blobs of flesh as a weapon to enslave women. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Everyone at my school already knows what birth control is and I doubt outside ultra-Catholic fundamentalists anyone has a stigma associated with birth control. There are still a lot of places where there is a stigma, and there is still a strong effort to refuse women access. Generally, by the same people who oppose abortion, because of course it’s all really about punishing women. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/148 "2010-03-24T03:35:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I see no reason to think that the vast majority of them care about the “murder” of “babies”. Their behavior is consistent with the behavior to be expected of people attempting to persecute women. Not with the behavior of people who actually believe that nonsense, or who care in the slightest about the welfare of babies. Rather the opposite; once they force a woman to give birth, they have nothing but disdain and hatred for the baby they forced into the world. They clearly care about the fetus only as far as it can be used as a weapon against women. > > Nor does calling it murder make sense; a mindless blob of tissue isn’t a person. If it’s all about oppressing women than why have some gone so far as to kill abortion doctors and thus discredit their movement? > [@](#): > > it’s not murder, not legally and not factually. If you ever do get it declared legally murder, that just means you’ve created a category of murder that is moral. Destroying mindless things is destroying mindless things, whatever label you give it. The fight over civil rights was about fighting for the rights of millions of actual people; not for using blobs of flesh as a weapon to enslave women. That’s your opinion. > [@](#): > > There are still a lot of places where there is a stigma, and there is still a strong effort to refuse women access. Generally, by the same people who oppose abortion, because of course it’s all really about punishing women. Even _Sean Hannity_ has spoken positively of birth control and Jack Chick’s denomination of fundies also support it. It’s pretty much unanimous among relatively uncontroversial methods such as the condom. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/149 "2010-03-24T03:59:35Z")
But not for emergency contraception which they want to deny even to rape vicims. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/150 "2010-03-24T04:45:08Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If it’s all about oppressing women than why have some gone so far as to kill abortion doctors and thus discredit their movement? Why have so few done so, if they actually believe ( or care, if they believe ) abortion is murder? The answer is, that they either don’t believe it, or don’t care. The point is not to stop abortions; they clearly care little about that. The point is to hurt women as much as they can. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > That’s your opinion. That’s reality. Calling abortion murder requires ignoring all the standards normally used to determine if something is a person or not. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/151 "2010-03-24T05:17:29Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Hmm maybe because they think it’s the murder of millions of lives? You may not think so but perhaps you should understand other people’s opinions. But when those opinions get codified into law, they prioritize the rights of non-citizens and non-persons above the rights of currently existing citizens and persons. And do so blindly and without regard to the impact that this has upon those extant persons’ lives. Seriously, all this thought about the poor “babies” but tell me this: _what happens to the women, the mothers, when a legal abortion is no longer available to them?_ What do you think will happen? Do you _care_? Do you have any regard whatsoever for women and the impact upon their entire futures, their entire lives, that comes with being forced to continue a pregnancy and give birth when they do not wish to? > [@](#): > > So then was Martin Luther King Jr. pushing for civil rights imposing his morality on everyone else? Dr. King’s activism was for the purpose of increasing freedom for minorities in this country. So called “pro life” activism is for the purpose of decreasing the freedom of one half of the citizens of this country. There’s no equivocating the two. None. > [@](#): > > Everyone at my school already knows what birth control is and I doubt outside ultra-Catholic fundamentalists anyone has a stigma associated with birth control. Completely untrue. Take a look at what non-catholic religious fundamentalists are teaching via the abstinence programs in their churches and increasingly, via anti-choice “pregnancy centers.” They are opposed to _all_ hormonal birth control, because in the rare cases where the hormones fail to prevent ovulation, if fertilization occurs, the egg cannot implant in the uterine lining, and that’s considered “abortifacient.” They’re opposed to IUDs for the same reason. There is absolutely a pushback against contraceptives by all of the factions who are opposed to elective abortion. Absolutely. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > If it’s all about oppressing women than why have some gone so far as to kill abortion doctors and thus discredit their movement? Do you really not understand their tortured logic here? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/152 "2010-03-24T23:05:24Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Everyone at my school already knows what birth control is and I doubt outside ultra-Catholic fundamentalists anyone has a stigma associated with birth control. Presumably, then, you think abstinence-only sex education is a myth? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/153 "2010-03-25T02:14:13Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > But when those opinions get codified into law, they prioritize the rights of non-citizens and non-persons above the rights of currently existing citizens and persons. And do so blindly and without regard to the impact that this has upon those extant persons’ lives. Seriously, all this thought about the poor “babies” but tell me this: _what happens to the women, the mothers, when a legal abortion is no longer available to them?_ What do you think will happen? Do you _care_? > > Do you have any regard whatsoever for women and the impact upon their entire futures, their entire lives, that comes with being forced to continue a pregnancy and give birth when they do not wish to? They can leave their babies at a firehouse in accordance with the “safe surrender” policy. > [@](#): > > Dr. King’s activism was for the purpose of increasing freedom for minorities in this country. So called “pro life” activism is for the purpose of decreasing the freedom of one half of the citizens of this country. There’s no equivocating the two. None. We’re advocating increasing the freedom of the fetuses of this country. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Presumably, then, you think abstinence-only sex education is a myth? Well I prefer sex ed teach birth control but also show the moral side of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/154 "2010-03-25T02:31:29Z")
You’re missing the point - if nobody but “ultra-Catholic fundamentalists” attach a stigma to birth control, why does the religious right in general favor abstinence-only sex ed? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/155 "2010-03-25T02:32:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They can leave their babies at a firehouse in accordance with the “safe surrender” policy. It’s ridiculous to suggest that this is a solution to unwanted pregnancy, and it would still force women to carry pregnancies to term against their will. > [@](#): > > We’re advocating increasing the freedom of the fetuses of this country You’re advocating the the rights of women be subordinated to a supernatural belief that insentient cluimps of tissue are imbued with magic spirits. > [@](#): > > Well I prefer sex ed teach birth control but also show the moral side of the story. What “moral” side? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/156 "2010-03-25T02:34:54Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > They can leave their babies at a firehouse in accordance with the “safe surrender” policy. After, of course, they suffer the pain and health problems of pregnancy, along with the humiliation of being treated as a brood mare. But then, that’s the point after all; as long as the women are punished for being women you are happy. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > We’re advocating increasing the freedom of the fetuses of this country. Garbage. Mindless bits of flesh don’t have “freedom”. You are advocating the torment and degradation of women. The fetus is just the weapon you want to use to do it. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well I prefer sex ed teach birth control but also show the moral side of the story. The “moral side” is that women have the right to an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/157 "2010-03-25T02:36:44Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re missing the point - if nobody but “ultra-Catholic fundamentalists” attach a stigma to birth control, why does the religious right in general favor abstinence-only sex ed? Because they believe-with some merit IMO-that kids will be irresponsible regarding sex and be more hedonistic with such knowledge. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s ridiculous to suggest that this is a solution to unwanted pregnancy, and it would still force women to carry pregnancies to term against their will. Well maybe they should have shown more judgement and wisdom in the beginning. > [@](#): > > You’re advocating the the rights of women be subordinated to a supernatural belief that insentient cluimps of tissue are imbued with magic spirits. My pro-life views do not come from the Bible-the Bible never directly spoke against abortion however if logically someone’s going to be human he or she should have the right to live. > [@](#): > > What “moral” side? The immorality of fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, and etc. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/158 "2010-03-25T02:41:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > After, of course, they suffer the pain and health problems of pregnancy, along with the humiliation of being treated as a brood mare. Not to mention the expense. If a girl is so destitute and desperate that she’d have to take her baby to a safehouse (which is a _wrenching_ thing for a woman to have to do, by the way), where is she supposed to get the thousands of dollars it would take to pay for prenatal care and delivery? Or is she just supposed to carry the pregnancy to term with no medical supervision, and then give birth in a bus stop bathroom? I’m inclined to give **Curtis** a pass on this, because he’s a kid himself and doesn’t really know what the hell he’s talking about, but the adults who fed him this kind of nonsense need to be slapped. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/159 "2010-03-25T02:51:07Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well maybe they should have shown more judgement and wisdom in the beginning. This is a truly ignorant statement. I mean that literally. It is an uninformed and ignorant thing to say. It’s also callous and unChristian. Just out of curiosity, though, are you willing to pay their medical bills to carry the pregnancy to term and deliver them? > [@](#): > > My pro-life views do not come from the Bible-the Bible never directly spoke against abortion however if logically someone’s going to be human he or she should have the right to live If they’re “going” to be human, then they’re NOT human, and if a pregnancy was terminated, there never was a human, and they were never “going to be” human. > [@](#): > > The immorality of fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, and etc. You think the government should teach religious morality to children? Seriously? The government should teach that “fornication” and homosexuality are “immoral?” What is your cite for these things being “immoral?” You are not allowed to use the Bible or any religious belief. Prove that “fornication” is immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276/160 "2010-03-25T03:01:17Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Because they believe-with some merit IMO-that kids will be irresponsible regarding sex and be more hedonistic with such knowledge. No, there’s no merit to it. Nor does keeping people ignorant promote responsibility. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Well maybe they should have shown more judgement and wisdom in the beginning. Ah, the good old “the sluts should have kept their legs shut” argument. You are again demonstrating that I’m right about the antiabortion movement, and the real goal is to punish women. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > My pro-life views do not come from the Bible-the Bible never directly spoke against abortion however if logically someone’s going to be human he or she should have the right to live. Garbage; as said, what matters is if they are human now. I could use your same logic to call eating a hamburger evil, because that hamburger is going to be human after I eat it. > [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > The immorality of fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, and etc. Fornication and homosexuality aren’t immoral. As said, prove otherwise. Bestiality is arguably immoral and certainly illegal, but so what? Do you think telling kids that will do anything? As for adultery, whether it is immoral or not depends entirely on what arrangements the spouses in question have made between them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liberals-would-you-support-an-abortion-ban-in-exchange-for-a-uhc-bill-and-immigration-reform/533276.md?page=9)