# Libertarian is a monster **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 8, 2000, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690 "2000-03-08T17:56:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/1 "2000-03-08T17:56:00Z")
Originally posted by **Libertarian** in [The Ethics of States Raising Kids](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001404.html) in Great Debates. > [@](#): > > What the government should force her to do is pay for someone who is a responsible citizen to raise it. It should throw her into prison and force her to work to pay for her room and board and for the baby’s support. > [@](#): > > Make as public an example of her as possible. If madness like this isn’t stopped, your own children will bear the fruits of your harvest. > [@](#): > > The baby is already a lost cause, inflicted on society be her. A Libertarian supporting slavery? Criminalizing an attempt by a mother’s attempt to assure that her child has at least a chance at a decent life? Declaring a human being a “lost cause” because of an accident of his birth? Lib, these comments demonstrate that you have a cruel, self-righteous character without a shred of human compassion. You discredit libertarian philosophy and the Christian religion. I used to think that you were a rational, well-intentioned person with values and opinions different from my own. I think now that I was wrong. Your comments are monstrous to me. ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/2 "2000-03-09T06:14:00Z")
**SingleDad,** Having read quite a number of Lib’s posts and applying what I know about libertarians in general, I would guess that he is not really suggesting that the government take extra steps to punish irresponsible mothers. Rather, I think he is suggesting that the government do less in terms of giving the irresponsible and ignorant extra opportunities to foul up their lives and our society without consequence. When Lib’s says anything about the government forcing individuals to do anything, it’s a pretty safe bet that he’d rather there was a better option and would not work to have such things actually come about. I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/3 "2000-03-09T06:17:00Z")
Please feel free to envision the above post of mine without any extra apostrophes or letters. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/4 "2000-03-09T06:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I would guess that he is not really suggesting that the government take extra steps to punish irresponsible mothers. It looks to me like that is exactly what he has suggested. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/5 "2000-03-09T06:42:00Z")
For the record, though, I quibble with the word “monster”. I view Libertarian as someone for whom ideology outweighs humanity. The word that sugests is “fanatic”. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/6 "2000-03-09T06:46:00Z")
Cheeseheads who paint themselves green and white and attend sub-freezing football games half-naked are ‘fanatics’. I stand by my original characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/7 "2000-03-09T06:47:00Z")
**SingleDad** Your anger has blinded you. **Nothing** matters but the child, and future children that irresponsible behavior like that by the mother will injure. You quoted that I said the baby was a lost cause, but you neglected to quote the qualifying statement that followed it. > [@](#): > > It might, by some miracle, grow up happy and loved, but she has already all but assured it a life of misery and rejection. It is a cause that was lost, no, _discarded_ — thrown away, by its mother. As I said in that post, if the baby cannot now be adopted, it must be given over to an orphanage. **All** of the tragedy in this scenario was brought on by the mother. All of it. Failure to punish her sanctifies the horrible crime she committed on the child. What crime? The crime of delivering a child she had no intention of caring for, a child that she viewed as a nuisance. I am a single father too, my friend. Your anger is sorely misplaced. You need to be angry at that damn woman. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/8 "2000-03-09T06:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I would guess that he is not really suggesting that the government take extra steps to punish irresponsible mothers. > > * * * > > It looks to me like that is exactly what he has suggested. Damn right I am! What crime is more heinous than abandonment of a child? Huh? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/9 "2000-03-09T06:49:00Z")
Well, firstly, I’m frankly surprised that **Lib** is advocating extra government intervention in people’s lives. But I like it. And secondly, it’s fairly rare (ok, extremely) that **Libertarian** and I agree on political and social issues, but it seems we agree on this: > [@](#): > > What the government should force her to do is pay for someone who is a responsible citizen to raise it. It should throw her into prison and force her to work to pay for her room and board and for the baby’s support. I agree with this completely. We, as a society, have an obligation to ensure that kids are raised correctly. We have an obligation to force parents to support their children, or provide for their support. Otherwise, we’ll continue to have idiots screwing like minks without protection and forcing those of us with sense to pay for the unwanted kids that result. What’s the problem? And, “slavery?” Puh-leeze. Let’s avoid the knee-jerk, deliberately inflammatory hyperbole, shall we? -andros- ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2000, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/10 "2000-03-09T06:58:00Z")
Oh, and let me add: “Libertarian is a monster???” Huh. News to me. I thought he was human. I’m glad you qualify that by saying “your comments are monstrous,” but still, it hardly helps your case any to sling insults like that around. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/11 "2000-03-08T19:02:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, firstly, I’m frankly surprised that Lib is advocating extra government intervention in people’s lives. But I like it. I have **always** advocated that government interfere to stop coercion. That’s what government is **for**. And **nothing** is more coercive than child abuse or neglect. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/12 "2000-03-08T19:10:00Z")
OK, I’ll buy that. ---
**Author:** ![Sake\_Samurai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sake\_Samurai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sake_Samurai)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/13 "2000-03-08T19:44:00Z")
Lib, a monster? I can’t wait until SingleDad stumbles upon _my_ ethics. * * * Yet to be reconciled with the reality of the dark for a moment, I go on wandering from dream to dream. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/14 "2000-03-08T19:53:00Z")
**Sake** 😃😃😃 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/15 "2000-03-08T20:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > All of the tragedy in this scenario was brought on by the mother. All of it. > Failure to punish her sanctifies the horrible crime she committed on the child. Sure. The father didn’t have anything to do with it at all. He’s standing in the wings desperately wanting to take this child, raise it, support it, provide it and its mother a loving home and financial security. ## -Melin **Voted Best Moderator** Siamese attack puppet – California ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/16 "2000-03-08T20:24:00Z")
**Lib:** As an adoptive parent, my intervention is no miracle, but an expression of my human values. My children are _not_ “all but assured of a life of misery and rejection.” My children were not _abandoned_. Their birth mother made a difficult choice for the best interest of her children. Should she be punished for this? **Andros:** > [@](#): > > Otherwise, we’ll continue to have idiots screwing like minks without protection and forcing those of us with sense to pay for the unwanted kids that result … Let’s avoid the knee-jerk, deliberately inflammatory hyperbole, shall we? Yes, lets. 😛 > [@](#): > > it hardly helps your case any to sling insults like that around. \Yes, this is the BBQ Pit. But in all seriousness, I’m using the term “monster” to mean a human being who appears to lack human compassion. **Lib:** In your original post you did advocated punishement _not_ of someone who abandoned, neglected or abused their child. You advocated punishment of someone who turns over their child to a responsible authority (a hospital) for the best interest of that child. And not only punishment, but (yes, I’ll say it again), **enslavement**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/17 "2000-03-08T21:08:00Z")
**SingleDad** > [@](#): > > My children were not abandoned. Their birth mother made a difficult choice for the best interest of her children. Should she be punished for this? Of _course_ not. > [@](#): > > In your original post you did advocated punishement not of someone who abandoned, neglected or abused their child. You advocated punishment of someone who turns over their child to a responsible authority (a hospital) for the best interest of that child. And not only punishment, but (yes, I’ll say it again), enslavement. I’m afraid your rage clouded your comprehension. From the Opening Post of the thread you linked: > [@](#): > > Trying to give troubled mothers an alternative to **dumping their babies in trash bins and bathroom stalls** , the Georgia House voted 153-15 Friday to allow women to leave newborns at a hospital. I was talking about _those_ worthless bitches and their jackal boyfriends. Slavery is too good for them. They forfeit **all** their rights when they abridge another’s right to life. SingleDad, I hope you will take a couple of deep breaths, calm down, and read this a few times till it sinks in. With all due respect, I do not believe you are thinking about what I’m saying, but about what you _think_ I’m saying. We are talking about **animals** who would throw babies in the trash. (My blood boils even to think of it.) These are nothing like mothers who voluntarily gave up their children to adoption so their child could have a better home. Those who would throw their babies away could _already_ could give up their children for adoption, but they don’t. **THEY THROW THEM AWAY!** Now, I know you might think that all that will change now in Georgia. But I tell you that nothing will change except that mothers who before **wouldn’t** have thrown their babies away because they are not that far gone, now will **begin** to give less consideration about what they’re doing when they pop out babies. Mothers who would have thrown away their babies do not think rationally. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/18 "2000-03-08T21:32:00Z")
THere may be a misunderstanding here, confusing women who abandon their baby i.e. in a trashbin, and women who put their children up for adoption. I have no problem with the latter, and cannot think of a punishment fitting enough for the former. Any woman that would abandon their own child in a dumpster is the monster, not Lib. I think enslavement is too gentle a punishment for such. I prefer flaying alive. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/19 "2000-03-08T21:45:00Z")
**Scylla** Better sit down. [fanning your forehead for you…] I agree with you one hundred percent. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2000, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690/20 "2000-03-08T21:54:00Z")
**Melin** > [@](#): > > Sure. The father didn’t have anything to do with it at all. He’s standing in the wings desperately wanting to take this child, raise it, support it, provide it and its mother a loving home and financial security. Your point is very well taken, and was brought up by someone else in the GD thread this spun off from. I was **extremely** remiss for not lambasting the worthless father with equal fortitude. Thanks for spotting the omission. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-a-monster/4690.md?page=2)