# Libertarian is STILL an idiot. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174 "2004-07-08T21:37:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/21 "2004-07-08T23:34:08Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Since his **subsequent behavior** \* has left me with the impression that he’s dishonestly trying to whitewash his past–and not with an eye toward better behavior in the future–I, personally, will refer to him as \*\*Liberal \*\* everywhere else on these boards, but will continue to refer to him as \*\*Libertarian \*\* in Pit threads. I refuse to support his whitewashing. > > Mostly because he’s an asshole. (\* emphasis added–Veb) Your current behavior leaves _me_ with the distinct impression your acting like a jerk, **lissener**. I don’t know–or care–what your past or present opinions of Lib are as a poster. I don’t know–or care–whether you agree with his reasons for changing his screen name. The fact is, he did. If you insist on referring to him by his old screen name, that’s deliberately stirring shit, i.e. trolling. And we don’t tolerate it, so consider yourself warned. You aren’t the self-appointed intelligencer of the board, responsible for informing all and sundry of past experiences with a poster. If your dundgeon won’t extend to referring to him by his real screen name, I fail to see why you can’t just use his long-standing nickname: **Lib**. Knock if off, already. It isn’t like we lack enough controversey. TVeblen, Pit mod ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/22 "2004-07-08T23:34:39Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Plenty of threads have spawned offshoots, so I don’t “superfluous” is exactly accurate. It is when there isn’t really anything else to be said on the subject. Unless, of course, you had other intentions here. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/23 "2004-07-08T23:37:31Z")
People who are interested in discussing Libertarian–always assuming there are such people–woudn’t necessarily check into a thread entitled “Pin the Ad on the Hominem.” I’m not the first OP who thought a hijack merited its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/24 "2004-07-08T23:39:28Z")
First of all, libertarians are not 180 degrees from the modern “liberal.” They are about 90 degrees away from both conservatives and liberals respectively, mostly because libertarians have a core set of philosophical principles which inform their position, while liberals and conservatives are cobbled together out of incoherent historical accidents of politics. Second of all, the sense of the word liberal that Lib is reffering to is a respectable one with not only a long history, but also a continued common use. The “liberal enlightenment” was not when Mill and Locke woke up and decided that the government needed to offer more social services to everyone. The liberal scientific method is not a redistributionist scientific method. If his name change can make people stop and think a second, that’s a good thing. If you don’t like what he has to say, hey, join the club: most of us don’t like what most of us have to say. But going after the name thing is stupid and, indeed, embarrassingly so. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/25 "2004-07-08T23:41:59Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > People who are interested in discussing Libertarian–always assuming there are such people–woudn’t necessarily check into a thread entitled “Pin the Ad on the Hominem.” I’m not the first OP who thought a hijack merited its own thread. Yeah, but a week later? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/26 "2004-07-08T23:43:09Z")
I was confused when I first saw a poster by the name of **Liberal** with over 15,000 posts. I was even more confused when I saw people refer to him as **Lib**. Then I read his explanation and it all made sense to me. **Lissener’s** hard-on for him still confounds me. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/27 "2004-07-08T23:51:17Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > . . . the sense of the word liberal that Lib is reffering to is a respectable one with . . . a continued common use. Based on confusion it causes, alone, I’d argue that point pretty strenuously. > [@](#): > > The “liberal enlightenment” was not when Mill and Locke woke up and decided that the government needed to offer more social services to everyone. No; but we do know that it means “something that happened around two hundred years ago.” Someone else, in another thread, had a great analogy: “Classical liberalism has as much in common with modern liberalism as classical music has with modern music.” > [@](#): > > If you don’t like what he has to say, hey, join the club: most of us don’t like what most of us have to say. But going after the name thing is stupid and, indeed, embarrassingly so. Sorry; not embarrassed. ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/28 "2004-07-08T23:52:18Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > I know I’ve said regrettable things on this board, and that my credibility has suffered for them. I realize that I’m gonna have to be more careful about how I espress myself–for a long time–before that credibility starts to repair itself. [Monty Python] **Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!** _Look, I CAME HERE FOR CREDIBILITY REPAIR, I’m not going to just stand…!!_ **OH, oh I’m sorry, but this is abuse, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.** _Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry._ **Not at all.** [/Monty Python] ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/29 "2004-07-08T23:57:53Z")
I don’t really understand why he changed his name, because I always liked the term “libertarian” in a political context. I know exactly what I’m dealing with, and I know what I think, and I know the Libertarian line, so I know where we agree and disagree. I suppose a real wingnut could get upset about the name change because it highlights the fact that those those who self-identify as liberals really aren’t any more, but “conservative” doesn’t really apply to the people who identify as such either. It’s a dumbassed think to get excited about. For example, I was a semi-liberal in high school, but I don’t consider myself to be one any more. The people who embrace the liberal label have moved far, far away from me politically. The problem crops up in political discussions. When we talk about “liberal democracies” we mean one thing, but when we talk about “liberal political positions” we mean another. I can see where **Lib** might get annoyed when people deliberately try to conflate the two in other peoples’ perception. The above only applies to American politics, of course. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/30 "2004-07-09T00:02:26Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > Your current behavior leaves _me_ with the distinct impression your acting like a jerk, **lissener**. I don’t know–or care–what your past or present opinions of Lib are as a poster. I don’t know–or care–whether you agree with his reasons for changing his screen name. The fact is, he did. > If you insist on referring to him by his old screen name, that’s deliberately stirring shit, i.e. trolling. And we don’t tolerate it, so consider yourself warned. You aren’t the self-appointed intelligencer of the board, responsible for informing all and sundry of past experiences with a poster. > If your dundgeon won’t extend to referring to him by his real screen name, I fail to see why you can’t just use his long-standing nickname: **Lib**. > Knock if off, already. It isn’t like we lack enough controversey. > > TVeblen, > Pit mod Sorry, missed this post, until someone mentioned it. I understood that namecalling was acceptable in the Pit. How does explaining exactly why I’m calling someone a particular name make it a violation of the rules? serious question. Seriously, your post seems a bit over the top to me. Is pitting an individual doper “acting like a jerk”? I thought my tone was pretty measured; I only posted it here because it was aimed at a particular individual. Could I refer to him as “asshole” in Pit threads? if not, could I refer to \*anyone \* as “asshole” in a Pit thread? Since I was utterly convinced that I was acting within the rules, these are serious questions hoping for serious responses. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/31 "2004-07-09T00:19:06Z")
I just can’t get myself worked up about a user name, even if it seems misleading. I’m not even really that cynical. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/32 "2004-07-09T00:23:07Z")
Oh and– > [@TVeblen](#): > > . . . I fail to see why you can’t just use his long-standing nickname: **Lib**. . . . I can’t bring myself to call him Liberal, so I have been referring to him as Lib outside this forum; it was my understanding that namecalling was unacceptable _outside the pit_, and I’ve been trying to follow the rules, as I understand them. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/33 "2004-07-09T00:46:51Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > “Classical liberalism has as much in common with modern liberalism as classical music has with modern music.” Pray tell, what do we call classical liberalism then? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/34 "2004-07-09T00:47:37Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Pray tell, what do we call classical liberalism then? Howbout “classical liberalism”? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/35 "2004-07-09T00:49:34Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > Yeah, but a week later? Please explain the proper schedule for me, Jeff, since my timing is all you seem to have a problem with. Unless that’s a front for what you’re really objecting to . . .? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/36 "2004-07-09T00:55:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Based on confusion it causes, alone, I’d argue that point pretty strenuously. The confusion it causes is due to the biases of the confused, not any sort of maliciousness ob **Liberal** ’s part. > [@](#): > > No; but we do know that it means “something that happened around two hundred years ago.” Someone else, in another thread, had a great analogy: “Classical liberalism has as much in common with modern liberalism as classical music has with modern music.” And how would you react to someone that said “Classical music isn’t music”? ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/37 "2004-07-09T00:57:12Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Sorry, missed this post, until someone mentioned it. I understood that namecalling was acceptable in the Pit. How does explaining exactly why I’m calling someone a particular name make it a violation of the rules? serious question. Because you don’t get to choose a particular name for any other poster, especially when the intent is solely to keep long-term disagreements right at the forefront. This _hasn’t_ just happened in the Pit, as evinced in [this thread that started in IMHO and later moved to GD](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=265238&page=1&pp=50) discussing the definitions and usages of “liberal”. Nor in this Cafe Society thread]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262812&page=1&highlight=libertarian](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262812&page=1&highlight=libertarian)) where you not only repeatedly called him "Libertarian’’, complete with red highlighting. Again, your opinion of his name change doesn’t matter. Your deliberate, repeated use of it is designed to rake up old crap nobody else besides you cares about. You’re acting like a jerk. Veb ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/38 "2004-07-09T00:59:28Z")
I should really focus ob not spelling “on” with a “b”. Such a thing goes ob record, and will probably be used as fuel with the nitpick whores pounce ob me. I’d better stay ob my guard, keep ob my feet, light ob my toes, so I can keep a lid ob the situation… ---
**Author:** ![Exgineer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a88e4f/32.png) [@Exgineer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exgineer)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/39 "2004-07-09T01:07:47Z")
I re-read my post, and took a good long look at the thread I put it in, and I have come to an inescapable conclusion. I’m an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174/40 "2004-07-09T01:11:03Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > This hasn’t just happened in the Pit, as evinced in this thread that started in IMHO and later moved to GD discussing the definitions and usages of “liberal”. I most emphatically deny that charge. I never referred to him as “Libertarian” in that thread. I responded to the gathering confusion by his apparent confusion of the two terms. I was pretty polite and straightforward in that thread. > [@](#): > > [And in a] Cafe Society thread where you not only repeatedly called him "Liberal’’, you went to the extra effort to highlight it in red. Yes; that was before I determined to keep that kind of thing in the Pit. > [@](#): > > Again, your opinion of his name change doesn’t matter. Your deliberate, repeated use of it is designed to rake up old crap nobody else besides you cares about. You’re acting like a jerk. I never suggested that it “mattered”; does it have to matter before I can express a negative opinion? In the Pit? If you’re saying that I am not allowed to refer to him as Libertarian, even in the Pit, while I am allowed to call him an asshole, I surely don’t understand it, and it seems to me to be a clear and egregious abuse of Mod power–to define “acting like a jerk” as “pissing TVeblen, personally, off.” But of course if that is your decree, I understand that I must follow it if I remain here. Fine. Grudgingly understood. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libertarian-is-still-an-idiot/254174.md?page=3)